The case for Delphi verus Java in SA high schools

[jes]

Is Delphi better than Java (for high school)?

The Department of Basic Education has said why it chose Delphi for the IT curriculum

 

[Bern]

Honestly, they should really be staying away from anything proprietary and/or dependant on proprietary. Free open source projects can allow for a much better support base and better longevity since the top projects typically have a much wider support base from developers to users. It also allows the dept to shape the direction of the project if required.

I would rather they spend that license money on setting up a crack team of developers and linux gurus that can generate system and application designs and management aimed at our schools basing them on the top projects out there. They can also focus on improving language support and so forth.

 

[Guantanamo]

There is only one reason that they would scrap Java for Delphi. Money. Someone is getting paid off for this.

 

[Hamster]

The first half of the article gave me hope the the DoE didn't just blindly make a decision...but then I got to the second part of the article - word's fail me.

I smell a "consultant" that has a hardon for Delphi.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Honestly, they should really be staying away from anything proprietary and/or dependant on proprietary. Free open source projects can allow for a much better support base and better longevity since the top projects typically have a much wider support base from developers to users. It also allows the dept to shape the direction of the project if required.

I would rather they spend that license money on setting up a crack team of developers and linux gurus that can generate system and application designs and management aimed at our schools basing them on the top projects out there. They can also focus on improving language support and so forth.

Agree with you 100%. It is another example of poor stewardship of taxpayers money to waste it on license fees when there are perfectly suitable Free alternatives available. It also puts learners whose parents can't afford software license fees at a disadvantage and that is just plain wrong and unnecessary.

If there are any like minded individuals here present (and I'm sure there are some), I would definately be up for participating in a campaign to promote use of open source software in South African Education and government as I strongly believe that building a robust open source ecosystem could be a key enabler for education and job creation in this country. Better than e-tolls at any rate.

 

[Pythonista]

Should've just gone with Python.

 

[Hamster]

Should've just gone with Python.

They have a point with having an IDE that supports GUI development (without having to download third party components).

If they wanted to stick with Windows technologies, how the hell did Delphi beat C#? Unless most of the teachers don't know it...which is probably the case, else they wouldn't be teaching.

 

[stevenv]

And Visual Studio does not support any of this? FFS what the hell is wrong with the education department. They could be rolling out Visual Studio C# Express for free and use exactly the same arguments they've given for choosing Delphi. If there's some weird clause in the VS licensing, I'm sure Microsoft would have no problem catering to this need: they'll be training a whole generation of developers to use their tools. And it's FREE!!!! and RELEVANT!!!!!.

P.S. I'm currently a Java developer, previously a C# developer and was a Delphi developer for many years.

 

[stevenv]

Someone should write an open letter department of education and publish it in the newspaper. If we have a volunteer, let us know what it costs: I'll definitely consider chipping in for the publishing cost. Mind you, if there's some nepotism going on, there isn't much point.

 

[Abe]

What you guys (and gals) seem to be missing is that this is school, not university. It's supposed to give people a brief introduction into programming. C# will in all likelihood scare people away in a hurry and Java even more so. Python is not that much better and really lacks a good IDE. Pascal is a very good introductory language. There is an educational version of Delphi around so I am sure the cost of the software is probably one of the lowest costs related to this whole thing. Commercial products also offer a very polished environment and will encourage people more.

You want people in school to get excited about programming, not prepare them for jobs. The second part will take care of itself if you can get them interested.

 

[Hamster]

I smell a "consultant" that has a hardon for Delphi.

What you guys (and gals) seem to be missing is that this is school, not university. It's supposed to give people a brief introduction into programming. C# will in all likelihood scare people away in a hurry and Java even more so. Python is not that much better and really lacks a good IDE. Pascal is a very good introductory language. There is an educational version of Delphi around so I am sure the cost of the software is probably one of the lowest costs related to this whole thing. Commercial products also offer a very polished environment and will encourage people more.

You want people in school to get excited about programming, not prepare them for jobs. The second part will take care of itself if you can get them interested.

*sniff*



It does come down to just another language, so whatever. I doubt Delphi will make people more interested in development than C# but again, whatever. The less people trying to code the more work and $$ for me.

 

[Abe]

*sniff*

It does come down to just another language, so whatever. I doubt Delphi will make people more interested in development than C# but again, whatever. The less people trying to code the more work and $$ for me.

It's not about getting more interested, its about not scaring people away. I know someone who did an online python course (coursera.org) and they pretty much never want to look at programming again. Even logo was better than that.

I can just see how scared a grade 11 pupil will get with code like this:

for(int i = 0; i <= n; i++) {
      if (isprime[i])                          // If i is a prime, 
        for(int j = 2*i; j <= max; j = j + i)  // loop through its multiples
          isprime[j] = false;                  // noting they are not prime.
    }

Compare that to something like this:

begin
  for i := 1 to 10 do
    begin
      j := j + 1;      
    end;
  ShowMessage('XXX');
end;

It's just easier for a new person to read and get comfortable with.

For the record, I am a software architect who is very capable in a number of languages including (C++, C#, Delphi, Java, PHP, Javascript, etc). I firmly believe in picking the right tool/language for the job. For example, if you try and build a large scale enterprise web system in Delphi then you are just being stupid. While eBay might have that working, they are more the exception than the rule.

Also, if you are good then there will always be work for you. Getting more developers should give the senior people a team to control/teach/direct.

 

[KikzAzz]

It's not about getting more interested, its about not scaring people away. I know someone who did an online python course (coursera.org) and they pretty much never want to look at programming again. Even logo was better than that.

If a person is so easily scared away, he/she will never be a programmer and therefore not missing out on anything. I have solid experience in COBOL, Java, Visual Basic, Delphi, C# and C++. Would definitely have preferred starting on any of these except for Delphi. Completely outdated as far as I am concerned with regards to the Windows and OOP environment.

 

[Hamster]

for(int i = 0; i <= n; i++) {
if (isprime) // If i is a prime,
for(int j = 2*i; j <= max; j = j + i) // loop through its multiples
isprime[j] = false; // noting they are not prime.
}[/code]

Compare that to something like this:

begin
  for i := 1 to 10 do
    begin
      j := j + 1;      
    end;
  ShowMessage('XXX');
end;

Well mr. Architect, let's at least compare code that does the same thing. Of course the code doing isPrime calculations and accessing indexes is more complicated and "scary" than a simple for loop.

begin
  for i := 1 to 10 do
    begin
      j := j + 1;      
    end;
end;


for(int i=0; i<10; i++)
{
    j = j + 1;
}


for i in range(0,10):
    j = j + 1

Whoah, suddenly that c#/java looks a lot less scary.

It's not about getting more interested, its about not scaring people away. I know someone who did an online python course (coursera.org) and they pretty much never want to look at programming again.

And since we are dishing out sob stories: my best friend and I both did Java at school. I became a developer and he went into marketing.

Two uni buddies started doing c#/java with me. One finished his masters only to become a entrepreneur, the other guy fell out in the first 6 months.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say, but I'm not sure what your point is either.

 

[Abe]

If a person is so easily scared away, he/she will never be a programmer and therefore not missing out on anything. I have solid experience in COBOL, Java, Visual Basic, Delphi, C# and C++. Would definitely have preferred starting on any of these except for Delphi. Completely outdated as far as I am concerned with regards to the Windows and OOP environment.

It's not exactly outdated but that's a different argument. The point is what is easier for people to learn.

 

[Abe]

begin
  for i := 1 to 10 do
    begin
      j := j + 1;      
    end;
end;


for(int i=0; i<10; i++)
{
    j = j + 1;
}


for i in range(0,10):
    j = j + 1

Whoah, suddenly that c#/java looks a lot less scary.

I took obscure code for exactly that reason. You can't really write obscure code in pascal without a going out of your way. Your problem is that you are used to coding in the languages above so they don't look intimidating. How would "for (int i=0; i<10; i++)" read to a person who has never coded before? Now what about "for i := 1 to 10 do"? Which one reads more like English? Why do you think it was used so much for teaching historically? You also wouldn't write things like "j = j + 1;", that sort of thing would inevitably be written as "j += 1;". It's all of these sort of shortcuts that make things easier for the developers but scare newcomers away.

And since we are dishing out sob stories: my best friend and I both did Java at school. I became a developer and he went into marketing.

Two uni buddies started doing c#/java with me. One finished his masters only to become a entrepreneur, the other guy fell out in the first 6 months.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say, but I'm not sure what your point is either.

The point is that sticking someone in the proverbial deep end could easily scare them away.

 

[Hamster]

I took obscure code for exactly that reason. You can't really write obscure code in pascal without a going out of your way. Your problem is that you are used to coding in the languages above so they don't look intimidating. How would "for (int i=0; i<10; i++)" read to a person who has never coded before? Now what about "for i := 1 to 10 do"? Which one reads more like English? Why do you think it was used so much for teaching historically? You also wouldn't write things like "j = j + 1;", that sort of thing would inevitably be written as "j += 1;". It's all of these sort of shortcuts that make things easier for the developers but scare newcomers away.



The point is that sticking someone in the proverbial deep end could easily scare them away.

I get what you are saying about it being "easier" to read (although that var/begin/end...cringe). But what is so bad about scaring them away from this field? If you cannot grasp that "complicated" for loop you are not going to get far anyway (even in school).

 

[Stochos]

What are our options?

Public Protector?

Anti-corruption hotline?

Newspaper?

Could someone write up an Op-Ed?

Can myBB crowd source it? Perhaps open a thread and vote on the final piece to be adopted?

 

[Hamster]

What are our options?

Public Protector?

Anti-corruption hotline?

Newspaper?

Could someone write up an Op-Ed?

Can myBB crowd source it? Perhaps open a thread and vote on the final piece to be adopted?

Defok wat?! :wtf:

 

[xera]

I would rather teach Java, than Delphi. Who uses Delphi anyway?

At least the syntax of Java is similar to that of C#, C/C++, php, Javascript. So if you learn Java, you're already well on your way to understanding these other languages. Isn't that a major plus?

What is Delphi similar to?

If the teacher does their job right, then nobody will be scared away. Curly brackets aren't scary, they are lovely.

Also make sure they use an IDE that helps more than hinders.
I have seen some poor students struggling to learn C++ because of archaic IDE's with meaningless/unrelated error messages.
It could be the IDE that scares the student away, more than the language!