The Coming Great Depression

Arthur

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Over the past few weeks - after reading especially Austrian School economists - I've (reluctantly) become convinced that the world economy is on the brink of a major Great Depression that will in every way eclipse that of the 1930s. These people do not suggest it's immediately imminent, only that it's inevitable, and sooner than any politician is willing to admit. There is just no way one can print trillions of dollars without unleashing massive inflation. When (not if) serious inflation flares up there could well be a run on the dollar, and that will crash the US economy, taking most of the rest of the world with it.

It's worth looking at predictions by people like Gerald Celente (a "trends analyst"), who predicted the end of the USSR, the Crash of 87, the Dot Com pop, and the Subprime Bubble Crash - no other trends analyst/forecaster has a better record at spotting major events the usual experts miss or even diss.

Like most mainstream media, the rather staid centre-left Grauniad can't quite mention the D word, but it's publishing hushed suggestions that current wisdom on causes of and solutions to the present fin crisis are flawed ... here's a recent pre-G20 piece by Terry Smith:
G20: urban myths and meddling
Leaders need to wake up to some unpalatable facts before they can tackle this financial crisis effectively


Terry Smith
The Guardian, Tuesday 31 March 2009

There are a couple of unpalatable facts which it is vital for the leaders assembling in London this week to understand if they are to tackle this financial crisis effectively.

The first is the cause of the crisis (no doctor would attempt to treat a patient without first trying to diagnose the cause of the illness). That's easy. The crisis was caused by bankers' greed, and the evils of the bonus system. This led to banks lending too much to subprime borrowers and trading in an alphabet soup of derivative and structured credit instruments such as CDOs, CLOs and CDS. So all governments have to do is recapitalise the banks, get them lending again, pillory some bankers, and the problem's solved.

Sadly, this urban myth gets nowhere near the root cause of the problem. The credit bubble, the puncturing of which has been so cataclysmic, arose from a series of policy responses primarily, but not exclusively, from the US Federal Reserve. Every time the market has been in difficulty, from the crash of 1987 to the dotcom bust of 2000-03, the US authorities rushed to the rescue, cutting interest rates and taxes to stimulate demand and make investments look cheap.

By not allowing the market to experience the inevitable consequences of a downturn, the actions of the authorities led to soaring credit creation and asset price inflation, the collapse of which is now much more painful than any of the downturns they prevented would have been. As we can see from this, interfering with nature is a dangerous thing. Yet that is the policy response which is now being maintained. By propping up bust banks and auto manufacturers, the authorities will merely prolong the inevitable agony.

What is more, they haven't thought about what caused them to adopt those inappropriate policies. The major problems in the western economies had one big cause: the deflationary shock caused by Asia and, in particular, China's emergence as a low-cost manufacturer. This deflationary influence on the cost of goods collided with a political imperative to maintain western jobs and living standards through lower rates of interest and lax credit in order to enable consumption to continue.

Even if the G20 manage to fix the problems in the financial system, which seems unlikely, demand will not return to its former level. Without strong domestic demand in the surplus countries, and in particular China, there will be a capacity overhang. This is colliding with the long overdue and demographically vital savings/expenditure adjustment in western economies which will lead to a depression.

Unpalatable fact number two is about the creditworthiness of governments, which is partly expressed through their currencies. Many governments have had to guarantee their banks' obligations in order for their banking system to survive, and monetary policy has moved on from the conventional up through the gears via zero interest rates to so-called quantitative easing.

The effect of quantitative easing - the purchasing of securities by the central bank - can be gauged in its popular description: "printing money". It inevitably risks a debasement of the currency and inflation. Which brings us to another important fact G20 leaders should bear in mind: when did America leave the gold standard? The gold standard was what ensured that there was a fixed amount of gold held for every paper dollar in issue. Once it was abandoned, the world began its experiment with a fiat reserve currency, in which the only thing that made anyone believe $1 would buy a particular amount of goods was because the Fed said it would.

So how long has the US been off the gold standard? Most people seem to assume that this occurred as a response to the Great Depression, or as part of the recovery from the second world war. In fact the gold standard was abandoned in 1971, by executive order of Richard Nixon. Not only does this seem shockingly recent, it also suggests that the bull market conditions that began in the early 1980s followed this abandonment. Maybe the conditions of the past quarter-century were far from "normal" (to which everyone seems to want to return) but an aberration caused by this.

Meanwhile - as the leaders of China and Russia seem well aware - the US has embarked upon an experiment which is likely to lead to the debasement of the world's reserve currency.
 
Been reading up on this myself as well. It's very interesting but not quite so black and white. I'll post some links a little later once I'm back at my laptop. Should be an interesting thread this...
 
German economist Thorsten Polleit, Honorary Professor at the Frankfurt School of Finance & Management has some scary things to say in this article.
There Will Be (Hyper)Inflation

The demise of fiat-money regimes around the world has become unmistakable. They can only be kept alive by central banks creating ever greater amounts of base money and governments underwriting commercial banks' liabilities.

The US Federal Reserve, for instance, increased the stock of the monetary base — which includes banks' demand deposits held with the Fed, plus coins and notes in circulation — from $870.9 billion in August 2008 to $1735.3 billion in January 2009 ...
 
Been reading up on this myself as well. It's very interesting but not quite so black and white. I'll post some links a little later once I'm back at my laptop. Should be an interesting thread this...

I agree... and recommend anyone to watch "The Obama Deception" ... I downloaded it 10 days ago... a good watch
It does not knock Obama per say... but more reveals how the Bankers rule the World Goverments

You will see who of the mega rich rule the roost... Our Rupert also has ties with the Rothchilds of Europe... his father must be spinning in his grave :D

Here's a look of how much he alone affects our lives... what about others?
http://www.mbendi.com/orgs/cos5.htm

Take note of Dicovery Health and the investment institutions... just a thought
 
Self fulfilling prophecy. Bunch of ****ing idiots the lot of them. Remember what ole "Gobbles" said. If you tell a lie long enough, eventually everyone will believe it. Those folks are instigating an economic shut down just by convincing the world it IS GOING TO HAPPEN! Resistance is futile! We are the borg.

Seriously, despite all the evidence pointing in that direction, by telling the world it is going off the edge of a cliff at full speed is just adding nitro to the package.
 
Given the fact that the world economy is fundamentally unsound, the sooner it goes off the cliff, the sooner we can focus on rebuilding a truly sustainable economic model.

It's like your hand has gangrene. Sure, it sucks to cut it off, but if you don't, it's going to spread up your arm. Although in this case we're a bit more lucky because the metaphorical hand can regrow.
 
For the sake of balance:

We live in the shadow of the Great Depression. Americans' gloom does not reflect just 8.1 percent unemployment or the loss of $13 trillion worth of housing and stock market value since mid-2007. There is also an amorphous anxiety that we are falling into a deep economic ravine from which escape will be difficult. These worries may prove ill-founded. But until they do, they promote pessimism and the hoarding of cash, by consumers and companies alike, that further weaken the economy.

Our only frame of reference for this sort of breakdown is the Great Depression. Superficially, the comparison seems absurd. We are a long way from the 1930s, as Christina Romer, head of President Obama's Council of Economic Advisers, noted recently in a useful talk. Unemployment peaked at 25 percent in 1933. At its low point, the economy (gross domestic product) was down 25 percent from its 1929 high. So far, U.S. GDP has dropped only about 2 percent.

What's more, the Depression changed our thinking and institutions. The human misery of economic turmoil has diminished. "American workers [in the 1930s] had painfully few of the social safety nets that today help families," Romer said. Until 1935, there was no federal unemployment insurance. At last count, there were 32 million food stamp recipients and 49 million on Medicaid. These programs didn't exist in the 1930s.


Government also responds more quickly to slumps. Despite many New Deal programs, "fiscal policy" -- in effect, deficit spending -- was used only modestly in the 1930s, Romer argued. Some of Franklin Roosevelt's extra spending was offset by a tax increase enacted in Herbert Hoover's last year. The federal deficit went from 4.5 percent of GDP in 1933 to 5.9 percent in 1934, not a huge increase.

Contrast that with the present. In fiscal 2009, the budget deficit is projected at 12.3 percent of GDP, up from 3.2 percent in 2008. Some of the increase reflects "automatic stabilizers" (in downturns, government spending increases and taxes decrease); the rest stems from the massive "stimulus program." On top of this, the Federal Reserve has cut its overnight interest rate to about zero and is lending directly in markets where private investors have retreated, including housing.

Government's aggressive actions should reinforce some of the economy's normal mechanisms for recovery. As pent-up demand builds, so will the pressure for more spending. The repayment of loans, lowering debt burdens, sets the stage for more spending. Ditto for the runoff of surplus inventories.

So, are Depression analogies far-fetched, needlessly alarmist? Probably -- but not inevitably. Even some Depression scholars, who once dismissed the possibility of a repetition, are less confident.

"Unfortunately, the similarities [between then and now] are growing more striking every day," says economic historian Barry Eichengreen of the University of California at Berkeley. "I never thought I'd say that in my lifetime." Argues economist Gary Richardson of UC Irvine: "This is the first business downturn since the 1930s that looks like the 1930s."

One parallel is that it's worldwide. In the 1930s, the gold standard transmitted the crisis from country to country. Governments raised interest rates to protect their gold reserves. Credit tightened, production and trade suffered, unemployment rose. Now, global investors and banks transmit the crisis. If they suffer losses in one country, they may sell stocks and bonds in other markets to raise cash. Or as they "deleverage" -- reduce their own borrowing -- they may curtail lending and investing in many countries.

The consequences are the same. In the fourth quarter of 2008, global industrial production fell at a 20 percent annual rate from the third quarter, says the World Bank. International trade may "register its largest decline in 80 years." Developing countries need to borrow at least $270 billion; if they can't, their economies will slow and that will hurt the advanced countries that export to them. It's a vicious circle.

Just as in the 1930s, there's a global implosion of credit. What's also reminiscent of the Depression are quarrels over who's to blame and what should be done. The Obama administration wants bigger stimulus packages from Europe and Japan. Europeans have rebuffed the proposal. The United States has also proposed greater lending by the International Monetary Fund to relieve stresses on poorer countries. Disputes could fuel protectionism and economic nationalism.

No one knows how this epic struggle will end -- whether the forces pushing down the global economy will prevail over those trying to pull it up. "Depression" captures a general alarm. The vague fear that something bad is happening, by whatever label, causes consumers and business managers to protect themselves by conserving their cash and slashing their spending. They hope for the best and prepare for the worst. When people stop worrying about depression, when the shadow lifts, the crisis will be over.

Link
 
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Well the crash of '29 was not bad, it was merely the start, things bottomed out in '32. US unemployment was high (20%) but for us that would be good :)
Also the American Great Depression was not as global as they make it out to be.
 
The G20 effectively amounts to a bunch of government leaders getting together and telling the world that the answer to our problems is to hand over more money and power to - um - *them* (and their cronies). Gee, big surprise. In other news, 10 out of 10 governments polled think that governments should be given more power and money. It's obviously in their interests to parade around as our "great saviours" - people are scared and they're capitalising on that - they don't really care if the so-called "solutions" they're peddling to us are, in fact, going to lead us to greater problems down the road. Their "solutions" are absurd on the face of it though (take more tax money away from businesses that do create jobs in order to give handouts to crooks and incompetents who run companies into the ground?), but since most people are barely intelligent enough to tie their own shoelaces and think that learning even elementary math and economics is for dorks, people will tend to vote in the "solutions" they deserve. Government leaders *always* advertise themselves as the answer to anything that scares you - that's the only way otherwise useless bureaucrats keep themselves in an income.

We're in a nasty recession but personally I don't think we're looking at recession. The global economy is a world away from what it was in the 1930s. It's truly massive, and more global than ever. Governments, on the other hand, *want* you to think there's big trouble coming. So that you can be *scared*. So that they can advertise themselves as the "answer", and you can buy in to their "solution" by handing over money. I know a slimy snake oil peddler when I see one, and the G20 summit is crawling with them, just watch some coverage if you want to see what one looks like.

Don't be scared. Don't worry about the media. We're in for some relatively tough times, sure. But the key word is relatively: In modern terms, "tough times" means you might have to cut things like DSTV, restaurants, and video games for a few years until the cycle turns upwards again. Not, say, literally worrying where your next meal comes from, with everyone around you starving too - *that* is a "depression".
 
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With all the doom and gloom forecast by all and sundry here, one has to mention that if a collapse comes - it will be even and across the board - or may hit the 3rd world and Asia harder then the rest. If all currencies deppreciate - and demand drops - and public debt rises - surely there will be deflation as in Japan and almost the USA and not 'hyperinflation' and secondly IF ALL CURRENCIES DEPRECIATE - relatively speaking we shouldn't be much more worse off - unless you're one of those who looses his job.
 
Now I'm scared, should we start stocking food and storing them in the basement.........?
 
Well, if times are going to be hard in the next few years then one thing I can do for myself is to profit from it, so how can one profit from a recession or depression? Gerald Celeste bought gold and oil stocks and then profited from their rise in value when the Iranian revolution happened, so I am sure we can benefit from the coming depression instead of choosing to be victims.
 
CNN showed footage of how many Americans are living in tents. In California people have resorted to "mining" for gold in rivers - with a handheld tray - like the old cowboy movies - scary stuff.
 
Well, if times are going to be hard in the next few years then one thing I can do for myself is to profit from it, so how can one profit from a recession or depression? Gerald Celeste bought gold and oil stocks and then profited from their rise in value when the Iranian revolution happened, so I am sure we can benefit from the coming depression instead of choosing to be victims.

I say buy them when the price drops than live off the profits ;)

Not that I can afford to stockpile gold or oil :rolleyes:
 
It really sucks not having a clue about economics, coz I have no clue who to believe - the prophets of doom or the "don't panic" bunch.
 
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