The F-35 thread

[FoXtroT]

So you just replaced one CAS platform with 3 and in the process quadrupled the crew required, tripled the personnel being shot at and at the very least tripled the operating cost. Unless you are assuming there is only one of the three on station at a time and therefor fielding a third of the capability?

Currently the US airforce is considerinfg adding more aircraft in the CAS role and are looking at aircraft like the A-29 Super Tucano or OV-10 Broncos to do it.



Source

AH-64 & Drones are existing platforms.

 

[Dave]

So you just replaced one CAS platform with 3 and in the process quadrupled the crew required, tripled the personnel being shot at and at the very least tripled the operating cost. Unless you are assuming there is only one of the three on station at a time and therefor fielding a third of the capability?

Currently the US airforce is considerinfg adding more aircraft in the CAS role and are looking at aircraft like the A-29 Super Tucano or OV-10 Broncos to do it.



Source

How did you get that from my post?

Currently there are the following in use for CAS: A10, AH64, FJ and unmanned. That's 4 (in simple terms, even though FJ is multi platform)

The USAF in the future are planning to have the following: AH64, FJ (which will include F35) and a sh*tload more unmanned. That's 3.

I know the US are discussing things like the Tucano for COIN work, but in even a reasonably benign environment like Afghan they wouldn't be usable in my opinion for the type of CAS that was done.

 

[Dave]

@blu82

Here's another question

What percentage of CAS in Iraq and Afghanistan was carried out by the A10?

 

[garyc]

Talking about the A-10, the USAF chief has just announced that their service life will be extended to at least 2021. The original plan was to start drawdown in 2018. The concern was that they would be retired quicker than they could be replaced by F-35s. Last year it was already announced that Boeing will be manufacturing new wings that could keep them in service up into the 2040s if required.

 

[Blu82]

@blu82

Here's another question

What percentage of CAS in Iraq and Afghanistan was carried out by the A10?

50%

Source

 

[Blu82]

I agree with this. I know that the F-35 cannot be stopped.

It is a good plane. I am no fan, mainly because I believe this was the moment when the USAF, USMC and US Navy should have been pushing into a hybrid drone force of autonomous, semi-autonomous and piloted drones. Developing swarm technologies, hacker proofing them and so on.

F-35 is an opportunity missed.

They are seriously pushing this UCAV solution looking at cheap systems and have demonstrated swarming tactics around manned combat aircraft.

Kratos specializes in building subscale aerial targets designed to mimic Russian and Chinese weapons, and is now adapting them for real-world combat use by the Defense Department as armed, autonomous aircraft, able to be produced in great quantities at a fraction of the cost of a manned fighter jet. These machines are being pursued under the Pentagon’s “Third Offset Strategy,” which places many small bets on promising technologies that have the potential to revolutionize digital-age warfare in the U.S.’s favor.

Source
Source

 

[buka001]

This though I not so hot on the drone only heavy systems because they can be exploited in creative ways.

Agreed. There needs to be a balance, hence why I suggest a hybrid type force. The amount of money spent could have been used to fund some seriously hardcore systems that are very difficult to exploit.

 

[Dave]

50%

Source

Funny that the official USAF stats say different. I wonder who's camp Rand is in...

“Eighty percent of what we have done in close air support in Afghanistan has been by aircraft other than A-10,” Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James told the House Armed Services Committee in March.

Building on this statement, Air Force Chief of Staff Mark Welsh has said, “We’ve flown a number of close air support missions with multiple airplanes,” including the B-1 bomber, F-15E, and F-16.

Also included in the 80 percent are FA-18s, Reaper and Predator drones, along with AC-130s gun ships and AV-8Bs.

I think I'd go with what the Secretary of the Air Force and Air Force Chief of Staff say over an outside company who might be working with ulterior motives.

From here

 

[Blu82]

Funny that the official USAF stats say different. I wonder who's camp Rand is in...



I think I'd go with what the Secretary of the Air Force and Air Force Chief of Staff say over an outside company who might be working with ulterior motives.

From here

They were commissioned by the Army to do the research.

 

[Blu82]

The design requirements that led to the A-10 was from a debrief a decorated German Stuka pilot which can be found here. The German pilot was Hans-Ulrich Rudel and a sypnosis of what he did during World War 2 can be found here. It's a very insightful read about the CAS environment and is still relevant today.

 

[Dave]

The Stuka had a similar problem in any contested conflict environment, it's why Hitler withdrew it so quickly from the Battle of Britain.

 

[buka001]

Funny that the official USAF stats say different. I wonder who's camp Rand is in...



I think I'd go with what the Secretary of the Air Force and Air Force Chief of Staff say over an outside company who might be working with ulterior motives.

From here

You could also argue that the USAF have an ax to grind against the A-10. They wanted to shut it down.

The real truth is probably somewhere in between.

 

[Dave]

A view from the other side.

[video=youtube_share;ScM_rN9a-js]https://youtu.be/ScM_rN9a-js[/video]

 

[Y'all Qaeda]

Much more in depth discussion - granted the author is very anti-F35

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...t-those-f-35-kill-ratio-reports-from-red-flag

 

[Blu82]

Good read and he stay fairly neutral until the final paragraph.

 

[Y'all Qaeda]

Good read and he stay fairly neutral until the final paragraph.

Yeah, but his previous articles mostly have a anti-f35 message, plus he has a habit of posting anti-F35 articles more frequently. Just saying - he is a bit biased..

 

[Drifter]

The Stuka had a similar problem in any contested conflict environment, it's why Hitler withdrew it so quickly from the Battle of Britain.

It became way too slow, main reason it got withdrawn.

 

[Blu82]

Yeah, but his previous articles mostly have a anti-f35 message, plus he has a habit of posting anti-F35 articles more frequently. Just saying - he is a bit biased..

He was surprisingly neutral in that article.

 

[buka001]

He was surprisingly neutral in that article.

I came here to post Tyler's view on Red Flag 17-1.

He does ask and evaluate pertinent aspects as to how the odds were stacked and how this performance was evaluated.

I still cannot see the F-35 being more than just a sophisticated stealthy JSTAR type platform. It just does not have enough ordinance to be an effective offensive platform.

Discerning from the various reports on Red Flag, it seems this is ultimately what the F-35 did.

 

[Arthur]

A view from the other side.

Thanks for this vid.

Lots of good info on an honest Russian assessment of MiG-21, MiG-29, Su-27, F-35, T-50, even transport workhorses.

"Who sees first, wins". He clearly understands importance of sensor integration in F-35. "Fifty percent maybe more of F-35 cost is software."

Very interesting also are the more sociological-political comments. It seems Khodarynok still has some nostalgia for the Soviet days, but perhaps only because it poured resources into the sector. "History formed us differently" is a fair assessment.

Nice comments about 5G engines and smart weapons capabilities.

He seems pretty clued-up about real capabilities, not just paper specs.

Regarding F-35: He doesn't get drawn much, but he obviously doesn't underestimate it's capabilities. He dismisses criticism of the F-35 as coming from ignorant non-experts.

Nice vid.