The Gauteng E-tolling Thread

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Transcript of https://soundcloud.com/primediabroadcasting/etollslive-sanral-ceo-nazir

JR: There is no point in debating the merits or demerits, we've done that one to death, okay. We all know it's a very controversial issue.

JR: Is the system working? It's 10 weeks since the launch and we know there have been some major problems. Well a pleasure to welcome the CEO of Sanral, Nazir Alli. Nazir Alli welcome, thank you for talking to us again. Good morning.

NA: Good morning John, and to you and your listeners.

JR: Have you ironed out the glitches?

NA: John, we are busy with ironing out the glitches, but I need to explain I think we owe an explanation to your listeners as to what the glitches are all about

JR: Right

NA: The glitches have nothing to do, or should I say, very little to do with those who have registered with us. The people who have come to register, who have obtained a tag from us, because we have got their correct details, there are a few glitches only with that. And the glitches related to those people generally happen to be a lag when they top up their account. I'm not sure whether you aware, when all of us do an EFT transfer it can take anything from 2 to 5 days before the money is transferred into an account. And then I am surprised about the amount of people who aren't aware of this. So they call in, or contact us and say "Look I've topped up my account and you say that I don't have sufficient funds". Then once you explain to people about the lag you know then people understand about the lag.

JR: So just explain that to me again, so does that mean that when you top-up you must be aware that the money doesn't go in. So you must top-up much earlier than you think, in order to avoid problems.

NA: John that happens with any account, not only with an e-toll account.

JR: Alright

NA: Whether you are paying a rates account or anything, yes. But what we've done with that John. We've found a way around it where we will manually track that payment and we will make sure that the person does not go into ... uh... into ... uh... into debt.

JR: Okay

NA: So that is what we do, so we've got a workaround there. Our major challenge has been in terms of the people who have not contacted us... uh at least who have not registered and those who'se details are not updated in the database that we use - is the ENATIS. Now I will give you an example - the other day which shows that the system is working. We capturing the correct data as far as the vehicle is concerned. That data is being captured. And if the car is not cloned or anything and if your (incomprehensible mumble) data is correct with the ENATIS then you are getting an account and there is a member of parliament who can attest to that. Because of his data being correct etc. He is not registered, he is not registered. But he paid his account and I want to say thank you to that member of parliament who are doing the right thing by paying his account.

JR: So are you saying, are you saying. Sorry to interrupt. Are you saying Nazir if you don't register and you are on the ENATIS system because of the inefficiencies we all know exists because of the ENATIS. The chances are your account is going to be messed up and this could harm the system.

NA: That is what is happening John. But let's look at the other side of it as well hey.

JR: Yea.

NA: Let's assume that your... your contact details are not correct on the ENATIS system and your numberplate has been duplicated.. has been cloned.

JR: Yea

NA: And if that cloned numberplate vehicle is involved in an incident - either in a robbery or something of that sort. Then we need to recognise that the Police also use the same databases that we're using.

JR: Mmm

NA: They are going to come to the contac.... you know... get hold of the person who'se contact details they have. And that person may not have been involved whatsoever in that particular activity or in that incident over there.

JR: But shouldn't you... shouldn't you have sorted this out if you are basing it on the ENATIS. Now OUTA say that you were warned that the ENATIS system was flawed.

NA: John, look. There are a couple things over there. First of all, we knew that there were flaws but we also rely on third-party databases as well. We also rely on third-party databases.

JR: Like what?

NA: Just because... just because you know one particular part of it is not correct doesn't mean that you musn't improve the roads and get the roads paid for. We need to look at the bigger picture in terms of what was the objective. One of the objectives was to get people out of their private cars onto Gautrain, and that is exactly what has happened. So government has met one of his objectives in encouraging people to leave their private cars and move onto... onto... uh... onto Gautrain. Uh... so that is an objective that we have met. There are other things, but this is also an opportunity for all of us John, and I make an appeal to you John.

JR: Mmm

NA: Encourage people to go and update their data. Take into account that is not about e-toll. Tomorrow if your vehicle...

JR: Okay. No... you...

NA: Duplicated vehicle is involved in a .... in a.... in an.... incident over there. The Police will come an.... come and arrest you.

JR: Are you.....

NA: (incomprehensible mumble)

JR: What.... How serious is the situation now, because we know there is huge anger and I believe that a lot of it is not to do with e-tolls and is not to do with the highways at all. It's a reaction against the waste of money, the arms deal, Nkandla all those things and people are fed-up and here is a way that people can protest by saying that well I am not going to roll over and get an e-tag. And I think it's become a tool of protest now. How serious is the situation in terms of people not registering... and .... and glitches in the system and money not being paid back Nazir.

NA: John, first of all look uh... there... uh.... Look I can reveal this because there was a parliamentary question right.

JR: Yea

NA: We've got over a million people who are registered. Okay... Over a million people who are registered and there are regularly people who are still registering. Especially those people who have now recognised that they could be arrested for something they have not been involved in at all.

JR: Right

NA: And that is uh... uh... uh.... one of the things that I said to you earlier we need to encourage people to go and update their record and make sure that the record is updated.

JR: But also you see Nazir, people would say Yes that is true but it also means therefore we can argue that we don't have to pay because there is a cloned number. You see, in a way you are giving people a stick to beat you with.

NA: No John.

JR: But... but... Nazir answer my question, how serious has the serious is the situation now?

NA: I have been answering you John.

JR: Okay I apologise.

NA: I must say that I disagree with you. We should be encouraging people not to celebrate the fact that you can get away by not paying your traffic fine and that. And one of the reasons that we get away with it is because of the issues around the correctness of the databases. Now coming back to your question.

JR: Yea

NA: Look we need to take into account that we needed to improve the road. It's very unfortunate, it's very very unfortunate that we are trying to mix the two things which are not related to each other at all. By the same token we can talk about wastages in government etc as you rightly have pointed out.

JR: Mmm

NA: But rather then saying yes we could have paid for the improvements to the road etc. On many occasions John on your program I've heard actually you inform your listeners that you know we have a huge backlog on the maintenance of our roads of a R149 billion rand backlog. On... not on the national roads, on the .... uh.... other roads as well.

JR: Mmm

Continues...
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timestamp 7.22 if somebody wants to do the rest.
 
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From the other thread

daveza said:
http://www.itweb.co.za/index.php?op...cle&id=71247:E-tolls-fail-acid-test&catid=234
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The South African National Roads Agency's (Sanral's) controversial electronic tolling on Gauteng's highways is failing, because around 60% of users are not settling their accounts.

This low compliance rate was revealed yesterday in documents handed out to coincide with the release of the 2014 budget. Although government says collections are gaining traction, the Opposition to Urban Tolling Alliance (Outa) says the low level of payments shows the system is failing.

E-tolling went live on 3 December last year, but has been marred by several "teething" problems, including lax security on Sanral's e-toll Web site and thousands of complaints around incorrect billing.

Sanral has had to explain the billing issues, which it says only affects 0.3% ? around 8 000 – people using its e-roads, and complaints have been lodged about invoice issues with the public protector.

Sanral has, so far, downplayed the problems with the system and has argued e-tolling is successful. However, it has failed to respond to specific queries around how many motorists are coughing up to drive on the tolled freeways.


Yesterday, the extent of non-compliance was finally revealed in the Department of Transport's budget vote, which was included in National Treasury's Estimates of National Expenditure.
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I have a few concerns with the part above:
1) How is it my problem if my data is incorrect on ENATIS but I give the correct information to the DoT which incorrectly enters it? If they arrest me for somebody elses number plate I will sue them for wrongful arrest. Point and case: I updated my postal address to my personal postbox in January 2014. I repeatedly asked the guy if the address had been updated, he kept saying yes. They sent the notice to my previous postbox...
2) The fuel levy doesn't care about duplicate number plates or incorrect data on the enatis database.
3) Clearly they are struggling with people who aren't registering, so don't register.
4) EFTs don't take 2 to 5 days, they will be in the other bank account the next day if payment is made before 1PM. Thereafter they might roll-over to the next day. If it's really such a big problem, why not open a bank account with every major bank? That way 99.9% of EFT payments will be instant. Or is SANRAL incapable of managing 5 different bank accounts?
5) One MP receiving his bills does not mean a working system.
6) If it really takes up to 5 days, which it doesn't. Then what you are actually saying is that we have to do an EFT within 2 days of using the roads, so we don't even have the 7 day grace period? Why can't SANRAL sent out invoices like everybody else and then expect payment within 30, 60 or 90 days? Most of these "realistic" companies will still have 4-5 bank accounts.
7) NA dodged the question about third-party databases. Where is he getting our private information from? Is it illegal? POPI act?
8) The Gautrain was already at capacity on the busy times of the day before e-tolls came into action. Using e-tolls to force people to use the Gautrain when they can't because it's overcrowded is just criminal.
9) Don't pretend that only government wastes money. The entire e-toll system is flawed in that at it's maximum efficiency it can only collect 81% of the funds collected. That is probably worse than the amount of money government loses to corruption every year. People aren't just pissed at the inefficiencies of government, but also SANRAL.
10) "Especially those people who have now recognised that they could be arrested for something they have not been involved in at all." see above for wrongful arrest suite. It's criminal to force people to register because you rely on an incorrect database.
11) Stop pretending that e-tolls is the only way that the roads could have been upgraded. The fuel levy could have done exactly the same but with a much higher efficiency than 81%.
 
My data is correct on eNATIS (I receive traffic fines just fine) but they somehow managed to link my newly purchased car to an address I haven't lived at for several years.
 
Right. So someone who has cloned my numberplater "commits a crime". I go and update my details. The police come and arrest me.

Nazir Alli, failing in logic 101.
 
Aquila ka Hecate said:
Right. So someone who has cloned my numberplater "commits a crime". I go and update my details. The police come and arrest me.

Nazir Alli, failing in logic 101.
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Yep, if the police arrest you you can sue them for wrongful arrest. But if SANRAL screws you with incorrect info from a cloned numberplate it's your responsibility to prove that it wasn't you after paying up.
 
"NA: Let's assume that your... your contact details are not correct on the ENATIS system and your numberplate has been duplicated.. has been cloned.

JR: Yea

NA: And if that cloned numberplate vehicle is involved in an incident - either in a robbery or something of that sort. Then we need to recognise that the Police also use the same databases that we're using.

JR: Mmm

NA: They are going to come to the contac.... you know... get hold of the person who'se contact details they have. And that person may not have been involved whatsoever in that particular activity or in that incident over there."


thanks NA for motivating me not to fix my Enatis data - I wouldn't want to be found if my cloned plate commits a crime
 
Wyzak said:
I have a few concerns with the part above:
1) How is it my problem if my data is incorrect on ENATIS but I give the correct information to the DoT which incorrectly enters it? If they arrest me for somebody elses number plate I will sue them for wrongful arrest. Point and case: I updated my postal address to my personal postbox in January 2014. I repeatedly asked the guy if the address had been updated, he kept saying yes. They sent the notice to my previous postbox...
2) The fuel levy doesn't care about duplicate number plates or incorrect data on the enatis database.
3) Clearly they are struggling with people who aren't registering, so don't register.
4) EFTs don't take 2 to 5 days, they will be in the other bank account the next day if payment is made before 1PM. Thereafter they might roll-over to the next day. If it's really such a big problem, why not open a bank account with every major bank? That way 99.9% of EFT payments will be instant. Or is SANRAL incapable of managing 5 different bank accounts?
5) One MP receiving his bills does not mean a working system.
6) If it really takes up to 5 days, which it doesn't. Then what you are actually saying is that we have to do an EFT within 2 days of using the roads, so we don't even have the 7 day grace period? Why can't SANRAL sent out invoices like everybody else and then expect payment within 30, 60 or 90 days? Most of these "realistic" companies will still have 4-5 bank accounts.
7) NA dodged the question about third-party databases. Where is he getting our private information from? Is it illegal? POPI act?
8) The Gautrain was already at capacity on the busy times of the day before e-tolls came into action. Using e-tolls to force people to use the Gautrain when they can't because it's overcrowded is just criminal.
9) Don't pretend that only government wastes money. The entire e-toll system is flawed in that at it's maximum efficiency it can only collect 81% of the funds collected. That is probably worse than the amount of money government loses to corruption every year. People aren't just pissed at the inefficiencies of government, but also SANRAL.
10) "Especially those people who have now recognised that they could be arrested for something they have not been involved in at all." see above for wrongful arrest suite. It's criminal to force people to register because you rely on an incorrect database.
11) Stop pretending that e-tolls is the only way that the roads could have been upgraded. The fuel levy could have done exactly the same but with a much higher efficiency than 81%.
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nice post!
just a comment: the 19% supposed cost of running the e-tolling is BS - the figure is at least 28%, resulting in max 72% efficiency

e-toll revenue expenditure.jpg
 
Bundu said:
nice post!
just a comment: the 19% supposed cost of running the e-tolling is BS - the figure is at least 28%, resulting in max 72% efficiency

View attachment 102585
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Not to mention that 28% in interest which would have been unnecessary if fuel levies had been implemented for this in 2006.
 
TRUE!

so the already expensive roads are costing us more than double of expensive roads - fvcking bastards!
 
http://www.iol.co.za/motoring/speci...al-let-us-count-e-tags-1.1654096#.UxBSSfmSx8E

Why won't Sanral let us count e-tags?

The e-toll saga continues as Outa disputes the Sanral claim that more Gauteng road users are registering on the system and fitting e-tags onto their cars. The oppostion group has challenged the Roads Agency to agree to an independent inspection of their computer screens in the operating centre. Picture: Chris Collingridge
COMMENT: By Denis Droppa

To tag or not to tag, that is the question. Sanral and Outa are locked in a numbers war, and in the middle are Gauteng motorists wondering which way to turn: capitulate and buy an e-tag so they can use e-tolls at a discounted rate, or hold out – at the risk of expensive bills or possible prosecution – in the hope that the e-toll system will crash?

With the success of the system dependent on a critical mass of motorists buying into it, Outa and Sanral have spent the last three months firing figures at us to support their opposing points of view.

According to Sanral, ever-more motorists are “seeing the light” and registering for e-tags. It claimed on the weekend that between 30 000 and 45 000 people were registering on Sanral’s system each week and the total number of tagged motorists had risen to over 1.2 million.

Outa, for its part, rubbished these claims and cited it as just another desperate attempt by Sanral to try and save a hugely unpopular system that’s bound to fail.

“HOGWASH”

Sanral’s number of 1.2 million e-tags taken up is hogwash, said Outa spokesman John Clarke, and was intended to create the false impression that society is clamouring to become tagged.

“If they are implying that these are fitted in cars making use of the Gauteng Freeways, this is misinformation,” said Clarke.

“We are tired of these tit-for-tat claims and have exposed Sanral’s deliberate misinformation about e-tag sales in the past. For all we know, Sanral’s numbers include tags sitting on shop shelves, storerooms and elsewhere, but they are of no use if not fitted to vehicles travelling on the Gauteng freeways,” he said, adding that Sanral should be asking why so few people are buying e-tags instead of disputing the evidence.

WASTEFUL SYSTEM

Sanral has been fighting rampant public opposition to e-tolling, which was implemented to pay for improvements to Gauteng’s freeways. While motorists don’t have any fundamental objection to paying for road upgrades as per Sanral’s oft-quoted “user pays” principle, what has them in a froth is that much of those funds go into running an unnecessarily expensive gantry collection system.

In some European countries, toll fees are collected by selling tokens to motorists that they affix to their car windscreens. Get caught driving on a tolled freeway without the token and you are fined: simple, and there’s no necessity for a multi-billion rand gantry infrastructure. Sanral has never explained why such a simpler and much cheaper system couldn’t be adopted locally.

Motorists who haven’t registered for e-tags believe that if they hold out long enough, the logistics of trying to track down and prosecute them is bound to make the e-toll system crash.

ON SHAKY GROUND

The well-publicised e-toll glitches – including the billing of motorists who haven’t visited the province, as well as Sanral’s website being hacked and customer data being stolen – certainly points to the systsem’s integrity being on shaky ground. Sanral for its part claims the system is running smoothly, with only minor teething problems.

“We believe that in spite of the billing challenges emanating from largely unregistered users and the customer service issues at some of our service outlets and call centre, the system is working and motorists are co-operating with us,” said Sanral spokesman Vuyi Mona.

Who to believe in this dastardly discourse of divergent statistics?

Outa has challenged Sanral to allow an independent journalist or auditor to inspect the computer screens in the e-toll operations centre, to see the exact percentage of e-tagged vehicles passing under the gantries. In the interests of transparency we asked Sanral if it would allow a Star Motoring journalist such access, and were refused.

We wonder why that is, if Sanral has nothing to hide.

Star Motoring
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Ironically Austria relies on exactly such a system where you have to buy stickers from the fuel stations before travelling on a road.
 
http://businesstech.co.za/news/general/53855/e-tolls-head-back-to-court/

The High Court in Cape Town will hear argument on Tuesday that legislation governing e-tolling should be declared unconstitutional.

Democratic Alliance spokesman Mmusi Maimane said on Sunday that the party approached the court because the Transport Laws and Related Matters Amendment Bill (the e-tolling bill) was incorrectly passed by Parliament and signed into law by President Jacob Zuma.

He said if the case is successful, the law would need to be sent back to Parliament to deliberate on for a second time.

The DA would argue that the law was incorrectly passed by the National Assembly as it was tagged as a Section 75 bill (debated in Parliament only) and not a Section 76 Bill (debated in Parliament and provinces).

“The people of Gauteng were therefore denied a voice in the passing of the e-tolling bill due to it not appearing before the provincial legislature,” Maimane said.

He said should the DA win the case in the high court, the matter would automatically be referred to the Constitutional Court where the law may be declared unconstitutional.
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if anyone bumps into Jack Bloom, give him a Bells

[video=youtube;KlT9veI819g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlT9veI819g[/video]
 
http://www.fin24.com/Economy/E-tolls-judgment-out-in-two-weeks-20140305

Cape Town - Judgment on whether the e-tolling legislation is unconstitutional and invalid was postponed in the Western Cape High Court on Wednesday.

Judge Owen Rogers said he would need time to deliberate on arguments around the tagging of the Transport Laws and Related Matters Amendment Act.

"I cannot fix a date... for the giving of judgment, but I anticipate it will be in about two weeks."

The Democratic Alliance approached the court to have the amendments declared unconstitutional and invalid because they had not been passed according to what it deemed to be proper procedure, which would be with input from the provinces.

The bill was tagged as a section 75 bill - an ordinary bill not affecting provinces - rather than a section 76 bill, which does affect provinces.

The respondents in the application are President Jacob Zuma, National Assembly Speaker Max Sisulu, National Council of Provinces chairman Mninwa Mahlangu, Transport Minister Dipuo Peters, the SA National Roads Agency Limited (Sanral), and the National Treasury.

Knock-on effects for provinces

On Tuesday, Willie Duminy, for the DA, argued that the amendments to the Sanral and National Roads Act had knock-on effects for provinces.

"The proposition of the applicants... is that these measures make it possible to establish this open road e-tolling system, and that in itself extends the scope, in practical purposes, of where tolling can be implemented," Duminy said at the time.

But Jeremy Gauntlett, for Zuma and the National Treasury, argued that the bill did not pass the "substantial measure" test of being tagged as a matter for provincial debate in Parliament.

"The de facto position is that the type of e-tolling facilitated by the collection method envisaged by the amendment [bill] is, and remains, highly unusual. It is only appropriate in very confined circumstances," read his heads of argument.

"From cabinet's and a public finance perspective, approving government funding for such extraordinary projects is not a matter which is 'possible' to such a degree that the mere notional ability could ever constitute a 'substantial measure'."

No substantial changes to provinces

On Wednesday, David Unterhalter, for Sanral, said the amendments had not made vital and substantial changes to provinces.

"The incremental utility of this amendment is extremely small," he said.

He said the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project and "a blunter system" of e-tolling could still have been implemented.

"It would have been entirely possible had the amendments not taken place," he said.

Duminy argued it was irrelevant whether a bill was necessary or unnecessary.

"Even if an unnecessary bill is introduced in Parliament, it must be tagged," he said.

The DA has said that should the application be successful, it would have no problem in principle with suspending a declaration of invalidity for up to 18 months to permit Parliament to pass the amendment bill anew.

Prosecutions and crimes

It would ask for a moratorium on prosecutions of any crimes that rely on presumptions in this period.

Should the amendment act not be re-enacted within the suspension period, the DA believed the declaration of invalidity should take effect and be fully retrospective.

This meant Sanral would be obliged to repay all tolls paid in relation to the amendment bill.

Convictions based on the amendment bill should then also be set aside.

Gauntlett said the DA had been silent on the criminal prosecution aspect in its notice of motion and founding and replying affidavits.

"This in itself is a basis for rejecting this impermissible attempt to introduce extraordinary relief... it is also demonstrably inappropriate, beyond this Court's jurisdiction and lacks utility."
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http://businesstech.co.za/news/general/53957/e-tolls-would-still-happen-without-amendments-lawyer/

The Transport Laws and Related Matters Amendment Act has not made vital and substantial changes to provinces, the Western Cape High Court heard on Wednesday.

“The incremental utility of this amendment is extremely small,” said David Unterhalter, for the SA National Roads Agency Limited (Sanral).

He said the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project and “a blunter system” of e-tolling could still have been implemented.

“It would have been entirely possible had the amendments not taken place.”

He was referring to amendments made to the Sanral and National Roads Act, which President Jacob Zuma signed into law in September last year.

The amendments allowed for the collection of electronically recorded tolls and the implementation of the electronic toll-collection system.

The Democratic Alliance took Zuma, Sanral, and four others to court to have the amendment bill declared unconstitutional and invalid because it had not been passed through Parliament according to what it deemed to be proper procedure, which would be with input from the provinces.

The bill was tagged as a section 75 bill — an ordinary bill not affecting provinces — rather than a section 76 bill, which does affect provinces.

Unterhalter argued that the amendments would not pass the test of falling within a functional area of concurrent national and provincial legislative competence, nor the test of introducing a substantial effect.

As an example of the second test, he referred to an amendment regarding presumptions to be made regarding tolling.

The amendment allowed Sanral to presume that an owner of a vehicle was liable to pay a toll in the absence of evidence to the contrary when demanding payment, or prosecuting for failure of payment.

The amendment also allowed for electronic evidence, such as an e-tag, to be presumed accurate and used to prove an alleged contravention.

Unterhalter said although the amendment made it easier to collect toll monies, liability was still in place before that.

Judge Owen Rogers said he did not doubt that the presumption made it much easier for Sanral to do its job and that without it, many might default on payment.

Unterhalter said one could not test a system based on how many people might default.

“There seems to be widespread resistance… it’s something that road users resent,” replied Rogers.

The lawyer was adamant the DA had failed to prove that the whole tolling system would be inoperable without the presumptions.

The DA has said that should the application be successful, it would have no problem in principle with suspending a declaration of invalidity for up to 18 months to permit Parliament to pass the amendment bill anew.

It would ask for a moratorium on prosecutions of any crimes that rely on presumptions in this period.

Should the amendment bill not be re-enacted within the suspension period, the DA believed the declaration of invalidity should take effect and be fully retrospective.

This meant Sanral would be obliged to repay all tolls paid in relation to the amendment bill.

Convictions based on the amendment bill should then also be set aside.
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So I was reading this article and it made me think of the laws regarding trade meteorology. If you buy something from a butcher you pay for the weight and the onus is on the butcher to prove that his scale is working correctly. Similarly if you are trapped with a radar gun and fined for exceeding the speed limit they need to prove that the device was functioning correctly. The way of proving this is by showing the calibration certificate - and the certificate is only valid for a few months or a few years. Recently - Julius Malema's speeding fine was cancelled because the state could not prove that the device used to measure his speed was functioning correctly - ie it did not have a valid calibration certificate.

Now... who's to say that the e-tags are functioning correctly? They are being used for trade purposes - to bill us, but SANRAL needs to prove that all of the devices are functioning correctly and that they only work within a certain distance from the receiver, only communicate with one receiver at a time, that they correctly receive and interpret the signal from the gantry to transmit, that they transmit quickly enough for the receiver to receive the message before the car is away, that they retransmit in the event of a failure etc etc etc.

Where are the certificates SANRAL? And did you also apply for exemption from this part of the legislation?
 
if you hate e-tols and corruption so much then why do you keep voting ANC ? (for those who vote ANC- if you don't, you have my thanks)
 
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