The Gauteng E-tolling Thread

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OzzieCapie said:
Has the fuel levy ever come anywhere near to paying for roads. Has it ever gone anywhere else but the general fiscus...serious question that is at the core of the issue.Where in the world does it pay for roads or go into special fund.

Over here one of the arguments that motorists have against cyclists rights (much more rights than in SA btw), is that they (the motorists) pay road taxes. It is a false premise because they only pay a bit of what they use, most of road funding comes from every tax payer whether they have a bicycle or a scooter.



I think you guys need some help from the 'struggle'...there must be some guys that are longing to lead a good old 'protest for rights'.

Do some rehearsals....Lets start with:

Viva Viva...A Luta Continua...We Shall Overcome.

"What do we want?....Free Roads...When do we want it?...Now
What do we want?...No e-Tolls...When do we want it?...Now"
[Continue this ad infinitum until police arrive]

[The following to the tune of We don't need no education]

"We don't need no bloody tolls...scammm ral...scammm ral
No cameras taking any photos..scammm ral...scammm ral
All we want are free roads... scammm ral...scammm ral
Who cares about the bloody poverty..scammm ral...scammm ral

Hey Zuma...leave our roads alone"

Wear good raincoats, wetsuits even better in case the Casper comes with the water cannon. Invest in some good masks for the tear gas. Shout loud before the police come and then drift to back and get ready to run.

We shall overcome...there will be freedom and education for all one day

A Luta Continua
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http://www.polity.org.za/article/r1...enance-toll-roads-to-remain-policy-2013-05-28

The Department of Transport (DoT) has a budget of R42.3-billion for the 2013/14 financial year, of which R18.85-billion would be transferred to provinces and municipalities for road maintenance, Transport Minister Ben Martins said on Tuesday as he delivered his Budget Vote in Parliament.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_South_Africa

Fuel levy R40.41 bn
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for 2012/2013.

Fuel levy can pay for a whole lot of it, probably all of it if used efficiently. Hell, if it was ring-fenced and all used just for roads, then we would e-toll class national roads all over, and much improved provincial (many are in a very poor state) and municipal roads.
 
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AfricanTech said:
Poke fun all you like - the reason that Oz is over regulated (that said, I like their road laws around speeding, etc) is because they are allowed to get away with it.
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How is Oz over regulated?

It is not too much to expect that people abide by the speed laws, don't drive drunk etc. It has been proven here that those measures have dropped the road deaths by several fold over what it is in SA.

In fact if not for political point scoring and parliaments that are swayed by minority balance of power, we would expect and welcome even more laws to make it an even better place. The cigarette laws for example have reduced usage and the diseases that come from it, plain packaging does not go far enough in the eyes of most, new laws will come into place regarding alcohol and bar hours given the issues with drunken violence.

Why is it hard to abide by laws.

Bill of rights is just a showcase. Freedom is not a 'right' if it impacts on society...we have more fredom and the right to do things without fear of safety, of group or government pressure because of these laws.

Pretty easy to obey...you make as if we are going around looking over our shoulders all thye time when in fact that is what happens in SA, and not here.

Long live the e-toll struggle...you will be liberated soon from this evilness
 
Ag, I was taking a cheap swipe at you - Like I said, I like your traffic laws.

Not so sure about your Internet restrictions.

Oz is not a paradise either -go check with the aborigines.


Anyway, peace mate, each to their own.

Go watch that E-toll YouTube video again - it really is very good.
 
OzzieCapie said:
How is Oz over regulated?

It is not too much to expect that people abide by the speed laws, don't drive drunk etc. It has been proven here that those measures have dropped the road deaths by several fold over what it is in SA.

In fact if not for political point scoring and parliaments that are swayed by minority balance of power, we would expect and welcome even more laws to make it an even better place. The cigarette laws for example have reduced usage and the diseases that come from it, plain packaging does not go far enough in the eyes of most, new laws will come into place regarding alcohol and bar hours given the issues with drunken violence.

Why is it hard to abide by laws.

Bill of rights is just a showcase. Freedom is not a 'right' if it impacts on society...we have more fredom and the right to do things without fear of safety, of group or government pressure because of these laws.

Pretty easy to obey...you make as if we are going around looking over our shoulders all thye time when in fact that is what happens in SA, and not here.

Long live the e-toll struggle...you will be liberated soon from this evilness
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Happy with my figures above that the fuel levy can pay for all the roads?

Yeah, I wish we had Australia's road accident figures and just had people obey the rules of the road.
 
OzzieCapie said:
How is Oz over regulated?

It is not too much to expect that people abide by the speed laws, don't drive drunk etc. It has been proven here that those measures have dropped the road deaths by several fold over what it is in SA.

In fact if not for political point scoring and parliaments that are swayed by minority balance of power, we would expect and welcome even more laws to make it an even better place. The cigarette laws for example have reduced usage and the diseases that come from it, plain packaging does not go far enough in the eyes of most, new laws will come into place regarding alcohol and bar hours given the issues with drunken violence.

Why is it hard to abide by unjust laws.

Bill of rights is just a showcase. Freedom is not a 'right' if it impacts on society...we have more fredom and the right to do things without fear of safety, of group or government pressure because of these laws.

Pretty easy to obey...you make as if we are going around looking over our shoulders all thye time when in fact that is what happens in SA, and not here.

Long live the e-toll struggle...you will be liberated soon from this evilness
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Fixed that for you.
 
AfricanTech said:
The constitution provides us with a measure of protection that other countries populations don't have - it's there as a last resort if the government tries to remove civil liberties that are written into it.

Not many countries have a such a thing.
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And you think Australia is one of those countries?
 
AfricanTech said:
Ag, I was taking a cheap swipe at you - Like I said, I like your traffic laws.

Not so sure about your Internet restrictions.

Oz is not a paradise either -go check with the aborigines.
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What internet restrictions? I am not aware of any. I can even see this ridiculous thread.

And how about you actually come out and see how aborigines choose to live - yes choice is available here- before commenting.

supersunbird said:
Happy with my figures above that the fuel levy can pay for all the roads?

Yeah, I wish we had Australia's road accident figures and just had people obey the rules of the road.
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'Can' pay?...What sort of roads are you after...goat tracks.

Can you show me how the measly fuel levy and registrations/licences of SA (in comparison to western countries) has actually paid for all road building and maintenance in the past.

Show me how the Nats supposedly did this magical accounting.
 
AfricanTech said:
I have. It ain't pretty
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Which regulations enforce such 'ugliness'?

AfricanTech said:
Google

Australian Internet restrictions

Again, I agree with some of it (it's obvious which parts), but it's a dangerous and slippery slope.
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You are missing the part where it says "proposed" filtering laws. Or perhaps they have blocked us from becoming aware of this. ;) One of reasons that the laws haven't gone through was the opposition to the way it was drafted, and that it could have been abused.

There is however a 'blacklist' of websites, and all govts require or force ISPs to provide data where crime is involved.

Not sure about a 'slippery slope'...we and you have laws prohibiting certain TV shows, film restrictions etc.

I don't have a problem with blocking 'porn'.

As I said before, the laws here are just normal civilised responsibility stuff, you are more likely to be worried about what the govt or police can do to you in SA...
 
OzzieCapie said:
'Can' pay?...What sort of roads are you after...goat tracks.

Can you show me how the measly fuel levy and registrations/licences of SA (in comparison to western countries) has actually paid for all road building and maintenance in the past.

Show me how the Nats supposedly did this magical accounting.
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I don't care what the national party did over 20 years ago, so no I won't, stop switching the goal posts.

I have showed you the figures from government itself. If they operate efficiently they would be able to maintain all SA roads and pay off the e-tolls roads over, say 5 years or less for their R40 billion. If they wanted to improve all the roads, they can increase the fuel levy by R1 and they would earn another R20 billion or so a year and they could make great improvements on the roads nationally each year.

You asked if the fuel levy could , I have showed you it can. If you don't like the figures, can you provide met with others ones that shows I am incorrect?
 
OzzieCapie said:
Which regulations enforce such 'ugliness'?



You are missing the part where it says "proposed" filtering laws. Or perhaps they have blocked us from becoming aware of this. ;) One of reasons that the laws haven't gone through was the opposition to the way it was drafted, and that it could have been abused.

There is however a 'blacklist' of websites, and all govts require or force ISPs to provide data where crime is involved.

Not sure about a 'slippery slope'...we and you have laws prohibiting certain TV shows, film restrictions etc.

I don't have a problem with blocking 'porn'.

As I said before, the laws here are just normal civilised responsibility stuff, you are more likely to be worried about what the govt or police can do to you in SA...
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Yeah, no regulations - my comment re the aborigines was in the context of saying that oz is no paradise either.

Indeed worried about what any government can do to its citizenry with those kinds of mechanisms.

Cheers
 
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Not sure if this has been talked about, does anyone know what the laws are regarding court summons? So if we don't pay the invoice sent by post and eventually get a court summons, if we only pay the invoice then, will the summons just go away or do you actually still have to go to court?

Also, at what point do you actually get the criminal record? After being found guilty in court?
 
OzzieCapie said:
What internet restrictions? I am not aware of any. I can even see this ridiculous thread.

And how about you actually come out and see how aborigines choose to live - yes choice is available here- before commenting.



'Can' pay?...What sort of roads are you after...goat tracks.

Can you show me how the measly fuel levy and registrations/licences of SA (in comparison to western countries) has actually paid for all road building and maintenance in the past.

Show me how the Nats supposedly did this magical accounting.
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45 billion rand per annum can pay for a ton of roads. But this will be the last time I respond to any of your posts. Stop trolling.

This is false because the highway was not improved in any way since the e-tolls were implemented on the 3rd of Dec 2013. All of the road upgrades were done many years earlier.

The assumption that the improved roads make the travelling faster is also false because the amount of vehicles on the road increase every year and road upgrades are necessary just to keep traffic levels constant.

Any improvements that users might be able to see on the roads currently is only temporary because people are busy protesting against the system, and using alternate routes. As soon as the protests die down the amount of traffic on the roads will be identical to pre 3rd Dec 2013 levels, and the only difference is that people will now have to pay at least R450pm extra.

There have been many rulings against SANRAL advertisements recently from the ASASA, please consider sanctioning them to have all of their advertisements approved by the ASASA before they can be used.
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I just sent this complaint to the ASASA with regards to the y-toll billboard which claims that we should pay for e-tolls because they reduce the travelling time.

The billboards only show the reduced e-toll tariff and not the tariff that an unregistered person will pay that might not know about the system. If there are limits to what can be shown the billboard should show the most expensive tariff and not the least expensive tariff. Thereby the user can only be pleasantly surprised instead of incredibly annoyed and angry.

There is also no mention on the billboards that non-registered users will have to pay as much as 587% more if they don't pay the full outstanding amount within 2 months.
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Submitted an additional complaint with regards to the tariff billboards which only show the e-tag tariff and not the tariff that people will pay who don't know about the system.
 
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