The "Is Windows 8 a Flop?" Thread

[Space_Chief]

I get it, but question its validity.

It will take the same amount of effort for a Win7 user to adapt/acclimatise to the default app launching paradigm of either Win8 or OSX ML. From that point on I would expect the same level of consistency going forward i.e. Win8->Win9 or OSX 10.8->OSX 10.9

Yeah, except this acclimatization gives you squat when it comes to Windows 8. At least switching to OSX gives you a consistent interface (the dock looks almost like the dock in 2002, and the menu bar looks like it did in 1984) and arguably better way of doing things (what's under the hood) with actual new tools and hardware. With Windows it's more of the same, except it's not. Now there are Metro Apps and Desktop programs all running together. The end of Start button is hardly the only issue. Aero is has been done away too. Touch screen paradigm on a keyboard/mouse PC? Idiotic.

Windows is just not worth keeping up. Definitely not with these changes in appearance and all because Microsoft wants people to get used to Windows 8 look so that they'll want a tablet device with Win 8 on it. Even Apple doesn't do that. They've kept their OSX intact irrespective of the success of their iOS platform. The two work independently and people now buy expensive Macs because the iPhone and iPad work so well, and vice versa.

Acclimatization to boost MS profits in the failed hope that Ballmer can own the mobile/tablet interface is a joke.

 

[Space_Chief]

BTW when MS got rid of Program Manager shell back in 1994, they actually allowed one to run it all the way up to XP Sp1.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/142255

Of course now the aim is to force people to get used to the Tablet look on their desktop to get them to buy MS Win 8 phones and tablets.

But that was a time when MS actually cared about usability.
Read this: http://www.sigchi.org/chi96/proceedings/desbrief/Sullivan/kds_txt.htm
and wonder how far MS has gone down the toilet.

 

[Roman4604]

Yeah, except this acclimatization gives you squat when it comes to Windows 8.

Let's see ...

- Faster boot/shutdown
- Picture Password (login without touching keyboard)
- Functional/compatible DLNA
- Storage Spaces to aggregate drive capacity
- More flexible multi-monitor configuration
- Hyper-V virtualisation built-in
- Native .iso file & video format support (most except .mkv .flv .ts)
- Greatly improved Task Manager
- Better File Manager and copying/burning dialogues

From my perspective Win7->Win8 provides a lot more functional improvement than say Lion->Mountain Lion.

Now there are Metro Apps and Desktop programs all running together.

Nobody's forcing you to use Metro/ModernUI/RT. You can remove it in 5 min and basically be left with Win7+1 (with different Start menu)

Acclimatization to boost MS profits in the failed hope that Ballmer can own the mobile/tablet interface is a joke.

Its obvious you're now just arguing from an emotional perspective, ignoring the actual feature/function merits of the OS.

It's really ugly. Reminds me of a UI I developed in Win 3.1 20 years ago. Progress, no.

Why so much focus on app launching when 99% of the time is spent in the Desktop using windowed programs (when you ignore RT). Anyway with a bit of customisation even it can be made to look less cartoonish ...

 

[Mouse]

that was a time when MS actually cared about usability.
Read this: http://www.sigchi.org/chi96/proceedings/desbrief/Sullivan/kds_txt.htm
and wonder how far MS has gone down the toilet.

from the link:

The design team was chartered with two very broad goals:

Make Windows easier to learn for people just getting started with computers and Windows.
Make Windows easier to use for people who already use computers-both the typical Windows 3.1 user and the advanced, or "power", Windows 3.1 user.

I can't describe Win 8's UI as having either of those attributes. They've taken a huge step backwards.

Exploration Phase

In this first phase we experimented with design directions and gathered initial user data. We began with a solid foundation for the visual design of the user interface by leveraging work done by the "Cairo" team. We inherited from them much of the fundamental UI and interaction design (the desktop, the "Tray", context menus, three-dimensional look and feel, etc.). We also collected data from product support about users' top twenty problems with Windows 3.1.

What was the point of making everything flat?
That 3D effect was useful when I needed to know what elements of a UI are interactive or not, as well as letting me know that the UI has hung because those effects stop working.

Separate UI for Beginners

The first major design direction we investigated was a separate UI ("shell") for beginning users. The design was quickly mocked up in Visual Basic and tested in the usability lab. (See Figure 4.) While the design tested well, because it successfully constrained user actions to a very small set, we quickly began to see the limitations as more users were tested:

Sounds like Metro, doesn't it?

If just one function a user needed was not supported in the beginner shell, s/he would have to abandon it (at least temporarily).
Assuming that most users would gain experience and want to leave the beginner shell eventually, the learning they had done would not necessarily transfer well to the standard shell.
The beginner shell was not at all like the programs users would run (word processors, spreadsheets, etc.). As a result, users had to learn two ways of interacting with the computer, which was confusing.

I can only assume the people that worked on Win95's UI are all gone, and their research has been completely ignored.

 

[rwenzori]

Let's see ...

A couple of those are really desirable.

Nobody's forcing you to use Metro/ModernUI/RT. You can remove it in 5 min and basically be left with Win7+1 (with different Start menu)

I don't want to have to do a lot of customizing each time I install an OS. Hell, XP is bad enough - do the tour, cutting it as soon as you can: getting rid of the teletubbies wallpaper: setting a decent screen resolution: disabling the stupid security centre: disabling autorun. And Win8 seems to keep throwing you into Metro at the oddest times.

Its obvious you're now just arguing from an emotional perspective, ignoring the actual feature/function merits of the OS.

Not at all. Win8 is all about loss of market share and being left in the dust, and the financial implications of those. MS had a bit of an oer fork! experience - suddenly their OS share of "computing devices" started slipping away from them at speed. This is well-documented, especially recently. What to do, oh what to do? Well, why not let's take the UI off our magnificent smartphones that very few people buy, and bodge it onto the front of Windows? That way we don't have to start from scratch, and we can say we have "re-imagined" it from the ground up - those suckers are sure to believe us.

So, instead of thinking, instead of taking a bit more time and producing something useful, MS produces Win8 with the ghastly Metro. And to make bloody sure that everyone gets to have to use this horror, MS tries to force this "universal" interface onto the desktop user. No choice on installing. No option, pal, ve haff decided for you. Have a few more ribbons while you are about it too, whether you like them or not.

I, for one, added my voice in the beta and preview phases on Sinofsky's blogs to the chorus of "give us a choice" - my comments, and those of many others, just disappeared.

Now Win32 is becoming "legacy" - the future is Metro ( or not-Metro, I know, I know ) - full-screen, crappy multitasking, and the rest.

Stuff Microsoft. One Steve down, one to go.

Anyway with a bit of customisation even it can be made to look less cartoonish ...

With the information density of a freeway billboard.

Edit. PS. MS should stick to copying the way Apple does things - they'll do better that way.

 

[Space_Chief]

Sounds like Metro, doesn't it?

Metro is not really for beginners though. It's supposed to look "cool" and make people who use PC want a Windows tablet/phone.

But your point is a good one. So either MS has become stupid and unlearned what they previously learned or the real reason is to leverage the desktop market to "advertise" or create familiarity with Win RT for tablets! Then people can buy more MS Windows tablets and phones, because they already so know them on their desktops/laptops. So it's not about making things easy for productivity (and by that keeping what people know the same and maybe polishing things or adding new ways) it's about just forcing a tablet OS onto desktops.

 

[Space_Chief]

Let's see ...

- Faster boot/shutdown
- Picture Password (login without touching keyboard)
- Functional/compatible DLNA
- Storage Spaces to aggregate drive capacity
- More flexible multi-monitor configuration
- Hyper-V virtualisation built-in
- Native .iso file & video format support (most except .mkv .flv .ts)
- Greatly improved Task Manager
- Better File Manager and copying/burning dialogues

From my perspective Win7->Win8 provides a lot more functional improvement than say Lion->Mountain Lion.

Yeah but none of those things requires a silly Metro interface, Metro apps and loss of Start Menu. It's not like "we have to kill start menu" to get better dialog boxes for copy or better Task manager or even ISO support. This is an important point.

BTW move Win7 to Win8 also breaks lots of apps, things such as fingerprint readers. ISO support can be had with 3rd party apps (even free ones) and MKV playback is possible with VLC or Media Player Classic Home Cinema. It even does it in hardware.

Nobody's forcing you to use Metro/ModernUI/RT. You can remove it in 5 min and basically be left with Win7+1 (with different Start menu)

And nobody is forcing you post this reply. This is a very poor rebuttal. It's the typical government reply: "Don't like the way things are in the country? Why don't you leave."

Its obvious you're now just arguing from an emotional perspective, ignoring the actual feature/function merits of the OS.

It's obvious I'm not. Look at my first sentence in this post, everything you said is irrelevant. It's you who is emotionally attached. I'm pragmatic and want usability over glitz.

Why so much focus on app launching when 99% of the time is spent in the Desktop using windowed programs (when you ignore RT). Anyway with a bit of customisation even it can be made to look less cartoonish ...

Yeah customisation.... why design and pay for an OS when I must redesign it myself. And first pay $5 for a Start Menu applet because when Win 3.11 went to Win 95 in 1994, MS actually allowed Program Manager until 2001 and even beyond.

 

[AfricanTech]

MS messed up - the numbers will show it - they will realise their error and correct it.

Windows 9 will be brilliant, customisable and will reinstate Aero and get rid of that horrible, flat UI.

 

[kingrob]

MS messed up - the numbers will show it - they will realise their error and correct it.

Windows 9 will be brilliant, customisable and will reinstate Aero and get rid of that horrible, flat UI.

Let's hope and pray that sanity will prevail at Redmond campus!

 

[Roman4604]

With the information density of a freeway billboard.

Edit. PS. MS should stick to copying the way Apple does things - they'll do better that way.

Well here is ML's LaunchPad, dont see a huge difference in information density ...

Yeah but none of those things requires a silly Metro interface

Nobody said they did, thats been my point all along, dont discount the enhancements of Win8 because you dont like/see value in the Metro/ModernUI/RT functionality. Just ignore, hide or remove it.

For me the $20-$40 upgrade price is a fair deal for the additional functionality/refinement you get.

BTW move Win7 to Win8 also breaks lots of apps, things such as fingerprint readers.

Any new OS is going to break some legacy stuff, especially at the driver level.

And nobody is forcing you post this reply. This is a very poor rebuttal. It's the typical government reply: "Don't like the way things are in the country? Why don't you leave."

And your response is how related to the subject at hand? I repeat, if your don't like the Metro/ModernUI/RT functionality, dont use it.

It's obvious I'm not. Look at my first sentence in this post, everything you said is irrelevant. It's you who is emotionally attached. I'm pragmatic and want usability over glitz.

Doesnt seem like it based on the above response.

Anyway this is becoming rather pointless, enjoy your Win7, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[rwenzori]

Well here is ML's LaunchPad, dont see a huge difference in information density ...

See that little thingy down at the bottom of your pic - dock thingy - it is missing from your Win8 pic. On the Mac you get a choice, see.

Here's a nice old one for you, if you like tile-based launchers:

 

[Roman4604]

See that little thingy down at the bottom of your pic - dock thingy - it is missing from your Win8 pic.

How so, in Win8 one can similarly pin often used programs to the desktop Taskbar.

On the Mac you get a choice, see.

As do Win8 users. Not sure how it has relevance to the information density argument though, if an app is in the Dock or Taskbar one would never need to open LaunchPad or Start.

if you like tile-based launchers

Hey, I didnt design ML or Win8, if you have a beef with full screen app launching menus, go complain to the relevant designers/developers.

 

[Space_Chief]

Well here is ML's LaunchPad, dont see a huge difference in information density ...

View attachment 34122

Nobody said they did, thats been my point all along, dont discount the enhancements of Win8 because you dont like/see value in the Metro/ModernUI/RT functionality. Just ignore, hide or remove it.

Yes, but that further illustrates the point. Metro is unneeded and in fact impacts the ease of use of these features because to get to use them I must mess around with installing and then using and even supporting this silly new Windows.

 

[AlphaJohn]

Yes, but that further illustrates the point. Metro is unneeded and in fact impacts the ease of use of these features because to get to use them I must mess around with installing and then using and even supporting this silly new Windows.

Joke is most people focus on their own PC's. That is simple enough. you can install/organize your own crap whatever you want on it. For some end users and support that is not an option, like normal users in a corporation that have no install rights or as help desk supporting other people's PC's.

My pain is not how it hinders me on my desktop, like said before that I can fix, my problem is the hundreds of other PC's i will come across during my day to day live and in order to not be out of play I have no option but to adapt and be forced to used the norm that will be installed.

TL;DR Good luck finding out what is installed on a laptop at a glance.

 

[AlmightyBender]

Found this interesting article: http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/03/s...metro-and-use-only-desktop-mode-in-windows-8/

Basically it explains how to create a scheduled task to bypass Metro and take you to the desktop at login. Also a tip to reconfigure defaults so that media and files are defualted to the desktop version of the app e.g. for pictures and video etc.

Would be very interested to hear from the gents here with W8 if the things in this article actually work effectively.

Still I gotta say that even though there are solutions to these annoyances, it is not an excuse for MS to exclude choice as to how you want to work

 

[Space_Chief]

Joke is most people focus on their own PC's. That is simple enough. you can install/organize your own crap whatever you want on it. For some end users and support that is not an option, like normal users in a corporation that have no install rights or as help desk supporting other people's PC's.

I agree 100%.
It's a big nightmare for those who do support professionally and for those with friends/family members who will now ask them how to do things because things have changed.

My pain is not how it hinders me on my desktop, like said before that I can fix, my problem is the hundreds of other PC's i will come across during my day to day live and in order to not be out of play I have no option but to adapt and be forced to used the norm that will be installed.

That's true too. But it's still a pain to do your own system(s). It's still wasted time. It's also a matter of principle. You give money to a company which claims to make an easier to use product, which it's not.

TL;DR Good luck finding out what is installed on a laptop at a glance.

And the START MENU actually did that very well. You can easily talk people on a phone through that. You can also see yourself what's installed on a strange system.

And the biggest thing which upsets me, is that some people say this is part of "progress" or the "modern" way of doing things......LOL. That's not modernity. It's immaturity and greed on the side of MS.

 

[Space_Chief]

Doesnt seem like it based on the above response.

Anyway this is becoming rather pointless, enjoy your Win7, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I don't want to get into ad hominems. Let's leave the whole "emotional" response thing out of it, OK, and have a civil, charitable discussion.

(BTW the point about fingerprint readers not working could exemplify a justifiable sacrifice. Worked under Vista and 7, but not under 8. It happens. BUT that's justifiable. The vendor's at fault for not making a new driver as the device is no longer supported. But removing START button code and adding extra stuff which makes things more difficult, is not justifiable.)

 

[rwenzori]

How so, in Win8 one can similarly pin often used programs to the desktop Taskbar.

Not really the same thing, is it. One CAN do all sorts of things, even whistle through your arsehole, but one wants an OS that does things right, or pretty well right, on install, without a mission of third-party apps, settings fiddling and god knows what kludges just to make it half acceptable.

As do Win8 users. Not sure how it has relevance to the information density argument though, if an app is in the Dock or Taskbar one would never need to open LaunchPad or Start.

Just a nice pic, showing that it has all been done before. If you don't like such, just don't run them. Problem with Win8 is that you get Metro, like it or lump it, and even if you jump through a few hoops to minimise the intrusiveness, it keeps rearing its fugly head. MS are doing their best to drag the world into Metro usage. Stuff them.

Hey, I didnt design ML or Win8, if you have a beef with full screen app launching menus, go complain to the relevant designers/developers.

I tried, I tried. Sinofsky clobbered my comments. Poeth.

 

[cerebus]

The Launchpad screenshot above actually looks quite attractive. I wouldn't mind if Metro looked like that. But it's really such an ugly creation. Depressing colour schemes, boring animations which don't work half the time, swathes of flat unused desktop space, and tiles which mostly don't animate except the Metro apps which you really want to avoid on a desktop anyway.

 

[NickLeStrange]

Reading through some responses here, I must say that I forgot that when I installed Windows 8 it defaulted things like videos and pictures to use the Metro fullscreen applications. I must say that that was quite annoying, but I sort of forgot about it because I always install VLC to play movies, so I am used to changing the default programs.

But I don't see it as being such big of a deal for must veteran PC users here on the forums. For regular users, who only do very basic things on their PC's, sure it could be an issue, but they usually adapt in the end. What I'm really picking up from all of this is that it is mostly support folks who are complaining, as they will be left teaching these newbies how things work, thus using up their time, etc.

From a personal, non emotional standpoint, I see that Windows 8 has a future, and that Windows 9 will continue on with Metro, as most articles speculate. It's a slight learning curve, and I think that MS will learn from the mistakes they make and implement methods for us other folks to have our cake and eat it too. Personally I also think that Metro is the way to go for a launcher on the Desktop, as I usually scrolled through the Programs menu on the regular start menu trying to find the program that I wanted, whereas on Metro I find it more easily at just a glance. Metro is also faster when it comes to searching for the application by typing the name on the keyboard, than the Start menu was in Windows 7, for me it was noticeable.