The Middle East Conflict Thread

Garyvdh said:
Absolute and utter Bull. You have just proved your complete ignorance. Please provide one shred of evidence for this fantastic claim. I think you made it all up.
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Quite a long history in that region...
Historical records show evidence of Jewish communities north of the Alps and Pyrenees as early as the 8th and 9th century. By the early 900s, Jewish populations were well-established in Northern Europe, and later followed the Norman Conquest into England in 1066, also settling in the Rhineland. With the onset of the Crusades, and the expulsions from England (1290), France (1394), and parts of Germany (1400s), Jewish migration pushed eastward into Poland, Lithuania, and Russia. Over this period of several hundred years, some have suggested, Jewish economic activity was focused on trade, business management, and financial services, due to Christian European prohibitions restricting certain activities by Jews, and preventing certain financial activities (such as "usurious" loans) between Christians.[19]

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth at its greatest extent.

By the 1400s, the Ashkenazi Jewish communities in Poland were the largest Jewish communities of the Diaspora.[20]. This area, which eventually fell under the domination of Russia, Austria, and Prussia (Germany), would remain the main center of Ashkenazi Jewry until the Holocaust.
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wiki
Sure, DNA tests show that the male line 'mostly' traces back to the Middle East but the female line is rather mixed.

But then again we are all african according to DNA evidence.
 
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Mephisto_Helix said:
But it is Hamas's fault for using human shields around their 'compounds' and being cowardly by living amongst 'innocents' ........
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Thats sounds like sarcasm. Its a bit ironic Israel has locked up Hamas and Innocent Palestinians together and then blame them for being together.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Kalisz

The General Charter of Jewish Liberties known as the Statute of Kalisz was issued by the Duke of Greater Poland Boleslaus the Pious on September 8, 1264 in Kalisz. The statute served as the basis for the legal position of Jews in Poland and led to creation of the Yiddish-speaking autonomous Jewish nation, which lasted until 1795. The statute granted exclusive jurisdiction over Jewish matters to Jewish courts and established a separate tribunal for matters involving Christians and Jews. Additionally, it guaranteed safety and personal liberties for Jews such as freedom of religion, trade, and travel. The statute was ratified by subsequent Polish Kings: Casimir III of Poland in 1334, Casimir IV of Poland in 1453, and Sigismund I of Poland in 1539.

Following are abridged excerpts from the forty-six chapters of the Statute of Kalisz:

1. ... If any Christian should accuse any of the Jews in any matter whatsoever, even a criminal matter, he shall not be admitted to testimony except with two good Christians and also with two good Jews...
2. ... If any Christian shall sue a Jew, asserting that he has pawned securities with him, and the Jew denies it, then if the Christian refuses to accept the simple word of the Jew, the Jew by taking oath must be free of the Christian.
7. ... If a Jew and a Christian fighting with each other engage in hitting or wounding, then neither the judge of the city, nor the consuls, nor even anybody else, but only the palatine of the Jews or his surrogate shall judge them, and the place of the trial shall be with the Jews...
12. ... If a Christian gets into an argument with a Jew in any way, and if that Christian wounds the Jew with a bloody or livid wound ... then the Christian ... must and shall be required to give to that Jew five marks for a blow to the jaw by any finger, ten marks for a livid wound, but for a bloody wound half of his possessions both movable and immovable to the aforesaid Jew...
13. ... If... any Christian kills one of the Jews ... then (he) ... must be punished with the imposition of death, a head for a head, and it is not to be done otherwise in this matter.
16. ... If any of the Jews enters into the home of any Christian, none of the Christian people must offer him any impediment, physical inconvenience, or annoyance.
17. ...Any Jew may freely and securely walk or ride without any let or hindrance from city to city and province to province in our realm, in accordance with the law of secure liberty in all our cities or provinces without let or hindrance on the part of their subjects, and any Jew in our realm may freely, securely, and without any let or hindrance take with him his goods, property, or whatsoever merchandise he wishes or is able to have, and to sell such things and buy others, and to alter and convert them to his own satisfactory uses; he may freely and securely delay or stay in a place of the city of town without let or hindrance, for as long as it suits him... they shall pay customary tolls just as other Christians do, and nothing else.
20. ... Wherever the Jews have an inn in any city or town of our realm, they may slaughter sheep and cattle for meats for their own use, and if any meats should be displeasing to them according to their custom and will, then they may sell these in whatever way they are better able or seems good to them.
22. ... If any of the Christians rashly and presumptuously jeers at their synagogues, such a Christian shall be required to pay and must pay to our palatine their guardian two talents of pepper as punishment.
29. ... If any of the Christians, not observing or heeding our statutes, should violently enter into the home of the Jew seeking whatever property of his own... that Christian must be judged as a bandit and robber.
30. ... No Christian may summon any Jew into the ecclesiastical court in any way whatsoever, or for whatever property or summons he be summoned, nor shall the Jew make answer before the judge in the ecclesiastical court, but the Jew shall appear before his palatine appointed for that term, and furthermore the aforesaid palatine, along with our governor for that term, shall be required to defend and protect that Jew, and prohibit his responding to the summons of the ecclesiastical court.
39. ... If any Jew is to be prosecuted by any Christian alleging that the Jews of necessity annual use the blood of Christians or the sacraments of the Church of the Christians, concerning which the statues and constitutions of Pope Innocent teach us that in such matters they are not culpable, since this is against their own law; and if despite this any Christian... accuses any Jew of such things, then... he must prove it with three good propertied Jews in our realm... and... four Christians... If by such testimony the Christian proves (his case) against the Jew, then the Jew shall be deserving of death and must be punished with it; and whenever the Christian does not adduce such testimony, and is not able to prevail against the Jew, then he alone is to be condemned...
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Note the year and the degree of tolerance. It's a bit off topic but the Jews had trade and financial guarantees written into law since that time or even earlier (since those did not arise out of vacuum).
 
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Aqua_lung said:
Google = cleric+condems

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/muslim-clerics-condemn-mumbai-attacks/394992/

Seriously, it's not that hard to find more.
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Aqua this is a serious issue. Please don't dissmiss it so easily. Once again why do we not see more condemnation of the tactics used by fighters who fight in the name of Islam? Why don't we have more secular community leaders condeming these tactics?

If they are, could someone from the Islamic or pro-Islamic community point these out? Maybe you have some anecdotal points to add?

Why can't the Palestinians struggle peacefully or at least not involve civilians on either side in their attacks?
 
marine1 said:
I dont think you know the meaning of ethnic cleansing. Go read up on what happened in Bosnia etc, that is ethnic cleansing;)
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http://www.antiwar.com/malic/?articleid=2187

There's some more ethnic cleansing for you... but who's doing it this time?

An Albanian man is urinating on the charred ruins of St. George's church in Prizren, Monday, March 22, as another Albanian immortalizes the moment on his camera-phone. The ruins have also been defiled with graffiti celebrating the KLA ("UCK"). (AP/Pier Paolo Cito)
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Israel restraining itself this early?...

Activists trying to bring aid to Gaza today claimed their boat had been rammed by Israeli gunboats in a "criminal attack" in international waters.

The Free Gaza Movement said its vessel, the Dignity, was intercepted by several Israeli vessels as it was heading to the Gaza Strip, which has been under Israeli aerial bombardment since Saturday.

One gunboat rammed the Dignity on the port bow side, causing heavy damage, although no one was hurt, the group said.

"[The Dignity] is taking on water and appears to have engine problems," the movement said on its website. "When attacked, the Dignity was clearly in international waters, 90 miles off the coast of Gaza.
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link
 
assassin said:
Thats sounds like sarcasm. Its a bit ironic Israel has locked up Hamas and Innocent Palestinians together and then blame them for being together.
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Hamas is a Palestinian organisation ... last time I checked. So it sort of makes sense that they'd be mixed up with the rest of the Palestinians.

Hamas quite frankly - as stated many times - deliberately fire from positions where retaliation will cause civilian casualties, in order to milk international indignation in its fullest.

Hamas might not be pulling the trigger - but indirectly they are responsible for every death so far. You seriously can't expect the Israeli government to sit back and watch their settlements (whether they are in occupied territories or not) get shelled.

The fact also remains, that Hamas has repeatedly and ceaselessly targeted civilian targets, rather than targets of any military significance.
 
A quick guide to some of the big issues.

This week, Israeli warplanes pounded Hamas strongholds in the Gaza Strip. The goal of the operation is to strike a major blow to Hamas's terror infrastructure and the ability of Hamas and its allied organizations to launch missiles and mortar shells at Israeli citizens and execute terror attacks of various kinds, such as kidnapping Israeli civilians.

As casualties mount, media coverage of the fighting will form public opinion, ultimately determining Israel's ability to complete the necessary operation. Following is a quick guide to some of the big issues.

Why is Israel bombing Gaza when innocent civilians are being killed?

Israel never targets civilians. The death of innocent civilians is regrettable under any circumstances and every effort is made to avoid civilian casualties. That imperative must be balanced with the need to protect Israeli civilians, who suffer from ongoing attacks from Gaza. But while the Palestinians fire Kassam rockets indiscriminately into Israeli territory, Israel launches pinpoint strikes at Hamas infrastructure. Prior to launching any large-scale attacks, Israel spent many months identifying Hamas' strongholds and training facilities. The Israeli Air Force also managed to hit "secret" targets such as underground missile launchers and arms catches -- a testament to Israel's great effort to ensure that air strikes weaken Hamas without harming innocent Palestinians.

Israel does not want a humanitarian crisis, and Hamas is the cause of the suffering and distress of the population there.

Unfortunately, Hamas has never shown the same level of concern for either Israeli or Palestinian civilians. On one hand, Hamas has fired thousands of missiles into Israeli territory, killing and wounding hundreds.

On the other hand, rather than seeking the well-being of the Palestinians under its control in Gaza, Hamas has exploited its civilian population -- and Israel's reluctance to cause civilian casualties -- by placing non-combatants in and around areas likely to be targeted by Israel. Hamas brings women and children up to the roofs of buildings housing terrorist activity in an attempt to prevent air strikes; it sends civilians to the line of fire; it works out of schools and mosques; it fires rockets out of crowded population centers; and it sends Palestinian mothers to murder Israeli children in suicide attacks.

In addition, many of Hamas' arms smuggling tunnels are hidden beneath the homes of Palestinian civilians.

This cynical use of human shields is illegal under international law and the cause of many needless Palestinian deaths. Therefore, the responsibility for Palestinian civilian casualties lies with Hamas, not Israel.

Isn't Israel's operation a violation of the Hamas truce?

Hamas is responsible for the situation, since it violated the calm, is firing against and attacking Israeli citizens, and is investing all its resources in arming itself and gathering power.

The truce brokered by Egypt was exploited by Hamas not only to employ terror against Israel's citizens, but also to gain strength and massively arm itself with the intention of increasing their capacity for terror and expanding the range of the threat against Israeli citizens. Hamas men were being smuggled out and were being trained in Iran and Syria.

Hamas shoots harmless, homemade rockets, and Israel responds with fighter jets and precision-guided missiles. Isn't that excessive force?

The Palestinians have long cultivated an image of victimhood to win world sympathy and demand Israeli restraint in the face of Palestinian aggression. In reality, the Palestinians' so-called "primitive" Kassam rocket has killed and wounded hundreds of Israeli civilians. The number of casualties would be even higher without Israeli security measures such as early-warning alarms in areas under rocket threat that allow Israelis to escape into bomb shelters. Hamas has also fired medium-range Grad-type Katyusha rockets, placing more than 250,000 Israeli civilians under direct threat of rocket fire.

Given the Palestinian fire power and their willingness to use it, it is clear that the charge of "excessive force" is simply the latest incarnation of the Palestinian strategy of "victimhood." Terror groups fire indiscriminately at innocent Israelis and then complain of excessive or disproportionate force when Israel fires back. But according to internationally accepted laws of war, Israel is permitted to respond with the force necessary to end the conflict.

It is also important to examine the intent behind the use of weapons. Palestinian terrorists do everything in their power to hurt or kill as many Israeli civilians as possible; Israel is using its advanced weaponry to protect Palestinian civilians from harm.

Isn't Hamas entitled to defend its territory against Israeli occupation?

Israel withdrew completely from the Gaza Strip in 2005, uprooting thousands of its own citizens in order to uphold internationally-recognized borders in Gaza. The Palestinians have no further territorial claims against Israel in Gaza. But instead of working to improve the quality of life for its citizens, Hamas has focused on improving the range and accuracy of its Kassam missiles and mortars and increasing its store of weapons. The Palestinian rockets, therefore, can only be seen as aggression against Israel with no moral basis.

Palestinians have fired more than 6,000 rockets and mortars into Israel since the Israeli withdrawal -- all without provocation. The rocket fire even continued during the six-months of "calm" in the Gaza area that ended last Friday. Since then, Hamas stepped up rocket fire substantially, launching 170 rockets at Israel over eight days, an average of more than 20 rockets a day.

No country in the world would allow this type of onslaught against its citizens. As President-elect Barack Obama said during his visit to the rocket-battered town of Sderot five months ago, "If someone was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing."

Isn't Hamas the democratically-elected government in Gaza? Why is Israel trying to overthrow it?

Hamas promotes itself as the legitimate power in Gaza. In reality, Hamas is at its core a terrorist organization that refuses to renounce violence or recognize Israel's right to exist. Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by the United States and the European Union.

Hamas came to power in Gaza through a violent coup against the Palestinian Authority government. The international community continues to recognize the PA, under the leadership of Mahmoud Abbas, as the legitimate Palestinian government in the Palestinian territories. At the same time Israel is fighting terror, the government is deliberately and openly maintaining a political process with the Palestinian government Abbas. Hamas opposes these negotiations and any settlement with Israel, and constitutes an unstable element in the region.

Hamas steadfastly refuses to recognize Israel and continues to launch attacks on its neighbor. Since Hamas refuses to live in peace with Israel, the Israeli government has no choice but to seek Hamas' replacement.
 
Just two comments on Marine1's post -

The credibility of the Israeli forces who deny excessive force wanes when one uses rifle fire as a response to stone throwing...

... and Israel saying that Palestinians have cultivated an image of victimhood - that is simply the pot calling the kettle black.
 
daveza said:
Just two comments on Marine1's post -

The credibility of the Israeli forces who deny excessive force wanes when one uses rifle fire as a response to stone throwing...

... and Israel saying that Palestinians have cultivated an image of victimhood - that is simply the pot calling the kettle black.
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and your comment on Obamasiah's statement?
 
daveza said:
Just two comments on Marine1's post -

The credibility of the Israeli forces who deny excessive force wanes when one uses rifle fire as a response to stone throwing...

... and Israel saying that Palestinians have cultivated an image of victimhood - that is simply the pot calling the kettle black.
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I usually do not agree with Marine1 but I must say he does have some excellent points which you have not addressed at all.
 
BBSA said:
I usually do not agree with Marine1 but I must say he does have some excellent points which you have not addressed at all.
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Perhaps I don't address them because I accept them.

Posters very often jump to conclusions which are far from the truth. I don't find the actions of hamas acceptable and never have. Neither do I find the actions of the Israeli military acceptable.

Perhaps if I had a child killed by a stray rocket I would think differently - regardless of who fired the rocket.
 
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daveza said:
Perhaps I don't address them because I accept them.

Posters very often jump to conclusions which are far from the truth. I don't find the actions of hamas acceptable and never have. Neither do I find the actions of the Israeli military acceptable.

Perhaps if I had a child killed by a stray rocket I would think differently - regardless of who fired the rocket.
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So which do you find less acceptable then?
 
Alan said:
So which do you find less acceptable then?
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Neither. How can killing of innocents have any level of acceptability.

Understandable ? I can understand the frustrations of the palestinians and I can understand the need for self defense from the Israeli side.

I just cannot accept the way either side are going about their cause. Nor can I accept either party denying culpability, blaming the other side while suggesting they themselves are blameless.
 
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