The Middle East Conflict Thread

[Xarog]

I wonder how many Arab people have any support for the state of Israel being in existence??

About the same number of Jews that support the existence of Palestine, I'd bet.

No - I complained about the Arab stance that only Israel attacks civilians.
Stop twisting my words.

I have not seen anyone in this thread (or anywhere else for that matter) saying that Hamas does not attack civilians.

So either, (A) you are lying to save-face, or (B) you are making comments which have absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95MUBU80

Let Hezbollah join the fight. At least the Hamas tombstones can read "From the ground we fought them, and from the ground we never returned"

Go Israel.

Sigh. Israel has no hope of destroying Hamas. Israel tried and failed misreably to destroy Hezbollah; infact their attempt only strengthened Hezbollah. You do not destroy popular resistance movements by bombing the civilian population which supports them.

split that land 50/50 ... equal rights to both Israel and Palestine people ... no injustice ... and if Hamas then still attacks, they f$#ked up! ... but like i said before this was never put on the table ... so the injustice remains (did not want to go here, circles circles circles )

so there, one Arab person for you ...

Precisely. And if Hamas does not stop their attacks after the Palestinians get the equal rights they deserve, then I too will call for their destruction as an organisation.

So who do u guys think is lying?? I posted a news report a few pages back where Ehud Olmert gives an account of how he told Rice to abstain from the UN vote after phoning Bush.. Thing is, video footage doesn't show a break in his lecture/public speaking when the call was suppose to have happen and the US denies it happen completely.

I find that very interesting because one side is obviously lying.

Ya, I found it extremely interesting. Someone has egg on their face.

To tell you guys the truth, it's quite surprising the amount of Palestinian casualties and deaths. With news reports depicting Israel bombarding every inch of Gaza and shooting everyone, you would think that the number of deaths IN THE MOST DENSELY POPULATED REGION IN THE WORLD would be wwwaaaayyy much higher!!!

There are 1,481,080 people (44% children) living on 360 km2, meaning 4,118/km2!! If Hamas and pro-Palestinian groups are right that Israel is targeting and slaughtering civilians, then why have Israel managed to only kill 1,000 people in so many weeks? Probably they can't aim properly and they just constantly miss, but everyone knows the IDF training is one of the best, so that can't be true.

Which leaves me only with one conclusion, that Israel is actually targeting ONLY HAMAS (and other terrorist groups) and not civilians. Which means Hamas is hiding behind the civilians and hiding their rockets/weapons in mosques and schools rather than to have the balls to come out and fight. And if Hamas really cared about its people it would have seized rocket attacks, abided the cease fire, entered talks started by Egypt, and accept the multinational force that Egypt proposed to defend Gaza from Israel (but for which some reason Hamas rejected...... arms smuggling....).

I want Israel to stop killing all the innocent civilians, but Hamas clearly started it so they should definitely stop it. Unfortunately they care more of proving a silly useless point, rather than saving their own people. Shame on you Hamas!

No one said that Israel is bombing every inch of Gaza. However Israel has intentionally bombed many places such as official UN schools (after knowing fully well WHAT it was that they were bombing), and then even going so far as to lie about the reasons for the bombing.

So much for your argument that they're only targeting Hamas.

 

[Xarog]

^^ Estimates vary widely, but they are between 400-650 militants. According to wiki, the problem attributes to this:



Also some civilians were killed by Hamas either by accident (crossfire, rocket misfire, etc) or with intent. During this time, between 40-80 Palestinians were executed by Hamas members, for reasons ranging from Fatah supporters to Israeli collaborators.

So to estimate the number of deaths between Hamas and civilians, and according to whom was the perpetrator is quite difficult at this moment in time.

The UN claims 1/3 of the dead are children. And as we've shown, the IDF has lied before. Shall I get the stats from back when they were fighting Hezbollah? Total Hezbollah casualties were around 300; cilivian casualties were around 10 000 if memory serves. Guess how many of those deaths the IDF claimed were Hezbollah fighters?

 

[Xarog]

When will the penny drop? There is no such thing as a Palestinian and no such place as Palestine.

There are people living in the occupied territories. They have the right to self-determination just like any other person.

These people are just a bunch of lawless vagrants with a fanatical chip on their shoulder and a belief that anyone who is not of their religious persuasion deserves to die, for that reason alone. Their only redeeming feature is that they are open about this. And we should take them at their word.

Yes, and the Palestinian mandate was absolutely empty of any people before the Zionists moved in and the whole place was a desert and there was no ways that Palestinian Muslims, Christians and Jews were living peacefully together before the arrival of the Zionists.

Btw, did you hear that Santa Claus really exists and that the man in the moon paid your house a visit sometime around noon?

P.S. You don't do yourself any favours by spouting discredited propaganda.

I suggest the civilized western world take off the gloves now and meet them on their own terms... head on. Stop all this mucking about. They have made it clear what they want so let's put a stop to it once and for all.
The last crew left standing, wins.

So you want to make the fight fair? OK, give the Palestinians a nation of their own first. Then if they still want to fight, give them their fight. Otherwise don't come with BS logic.

For as long as one of these looneys has breath in him, the conflict will persist. Get rid of this plague. ( How many did Xarog say? 1.5 million? ....Peace of cake! Think about how many lives it would save in the next 100 years or so.)

End of problem.

Sadly, in a world not viewed through the rose-tinted glasses of a racist and advocater of genocide, the problem is a little more complex. But I do note your claiming support for the killing of 1.5 million human beings. Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin and Pinochet would be proud.

Besides, yes Gaza is poverty-stricken, but Hamas is not. The last time I checked, the government budget was $1.6 billion.

Source please.

And I assume this excludes the millions that Hamas receives from other sources, including Syria and Iran. Except to waste their money on rockets, they could use it to pay for bunkers, feed their people, and give their children an appropriate education.

As I have linked in this thread before, the Council on Foreign Relations reports that Hamas spends 90% of its efforts on social welfare and taking care of the Palestinian people. So they DO use it to feed people and give chilren an education.

The news today reported that out of the 1000 killed, just under half were militants. So that means that almost 500 of those are Hamas fighters.
Not difficult to see that the rest being in such close proximity to the rocket launchers were inevitable.
Anyways..just what the news mentioned.

G26

Yeah, that's what the IDF claims, and the IDF have been shown to be a bunch of liars.

 

[Xarog]

Now here's something that's really rare : Someone who can recognise moral action even when his personal wellbeing is being threatened...

http://avners.blogspot.com/

 

[nivek]

you've got way too much free time on your hands

 

[Xarog]

Ja, actually I've spent too much time on this thread already.

 

[BBSA]

you've got way too much free time on your hands

or he is trying to dazzle us with his edukashun

 

[Xarog]

or he is trying to dazzle us with his edukashun

Translation : you can't play the ball, so you play the man instead.

 

[BBSA]

Translation : you can't play the ball, so you play the man instead.

Translation: Twisting me words again.

 

[Xarog]

Translation: Twisting me words again.

Yes, because mocking me instead of addressing my argument is a legitimate way to debate.

There is but one legitimate interpretation : you are resorting to ad-hominems in a futile attempt to discredit those whom you disagree with.

 

[marine1]

Translation : you can't play the ball, so you play the man instead.

A trick we learned form your side.

 

[Xarog]

A trick we learned form your side.

I represent no side. And by all means, show me a single post where I have ever tried to prove my point via an ad-hominem argument.

 

[marine1]

Xarog, and I dont mean to offend you, but I do not have the patience to read your long posts. I dont mean it as an insult but I am a little ADD so I lose concentration

 

[BBSA]

Yes, because mocking me instead of addressing my argument is a legitimate way to debate.

There is but one legitimate interpretation : you are resorting to ad-hominems in a futile attempt to discredit those whom you disagree with.

I'm not discrediting you, I'm praising your edukashun.

We are dazzled

 

[CTSA]

Xarog, I'n not gonna even bother trying to explain my posts to you. All you did was quote my posts and then skew the facts in your favour and twist word. You are already deeply in a state of denial that any other side is wrong other than Hamas. However, I will rebuttal some of your points, so your twisted statements don't fall on the other forumers as the truth.

No one said that Israel is bombing every inch of Gaza. However Israel has intentionally bombed many places such as official UN schools (after knowing fully well WHAT it was that they were bombing), and then even going so far as to lie about the reasons for the bombing.

So much for your argument that they're only targeting Hamas.

First, how do you know what was happening at that school? Were you there? There are videos from 2007 showing Hamas militants firing mortars from a UNWRA school and although Hamas denies firing any mortars from there now (cuz its against international law), the UNWRA doesn't exclude the possibility that they might have. So who knows, it might have been Israel's folly or just an act of self-defense. In any case, the civilian deaths were unacceptable, and that is partially Hamas' fault for hiding behind their civilians. If Hamas didn't set this precedent and reputation, maybe they would have had more credibility in this case.

Second, Israel has done a lot to prevent civilian deaths. They have made appeals on the radio letting Gazans know the areas they would bombard, dropped leaflets warning and giving advice to Gazans, and phoning people to let them know of an impeding attack. They would even drop dummy bombs to force people out of their buildings.

As a result, yes there have been many casualties that shouldn't have happened. And with children making up nearly half of Gaza's population, there have been many children who have died. Israel has made some unwanted attacks on the civilians, but to claim them as intentional is baseless. They have made clear efforts to avoid civilian deaths, but since Hamas fight as cowards in civilian clothes, obviously it's difficult to differentiate. Hamas has to stop this by stopping their attacks!! Or by protecting their civilians rather than their mujahedin.

 

[Alan]

Israelis, no. Gazans, yes :


http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-...dangered-military-tactics-both-sides-20090108

Fail.


Indeed. Israel is as bad as Hamas.

ROFL Amnesty International. Sorry I don't have my tinfoil hat on. Even if that was true it's still not hiding behind their own people

So not the same as Hamas then........

you've got way too much free time on your hands

Actually it's part of his job description. Earns him some good rial

or he is trying to dazzle us with his edukashun

 

[CTSA]

Source please.

wikipedia

As I have linked in this thread before, the Council on Foreign Relations reports that Hamas spends 90% of its efforts on social welfare and taking care of the Palestinian people. So they DO use it to feed people and give chilren an education.

Do actually expect me and any other rational human being to believe that? That's probably only the amount that Hamas' chooses to inform the public of. They certainly select which audit books their prepared to hand over to the public and other departments. Do you actually think they want "Orders: Iranian Rockets- $250,000,000" written on their books?? Hahaha. Hamas recieves underground funds from various sources and no one will ever know
the exact amount. But to be able to buy thousands of rockets means it must be quite a hefty sum.

 

[STS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xarog
As I have linked in this thread before, the Council on Foreign Relations reports that Hamas spends 90% of its efforts on social welfare and taking care of the Palestinian people. So they DO use it to feed people and give chilren an education.

Do actually expect me and any other rational human being to believe that? That's probably only the amount that Hamas' chooses to inform the public of. They certainly select which audit books their prepared to hand over to the public and other departments. Do you actually think they want "Orders: Iranian Rockets- $250,000,000" written on their books?? Hahaha. Hamas recieves underground funds from various sources and no one will ever know
the exact amount. But to be able to buy thousands of rockets means it must be quite a hefty sum.

that is where you are MISINFORMED! hamas doesn't buy rockets, they make their own. and of course the spend all their money on rockets, people don't need to eat or have electricity, i mean who would expect a terrorist organisation to actually be a government?

of course they could receive underground funds, they do gave people that support them and are sympathetic of them

 

[d0b33]

After nearly 3500 posts one thing is very clear to me in the thread, those that see no fault with Israel all share a similar trait... don't seem to be very smart and will resort to an ad-hominem response.

 

[LazyLion]

I represent no side. And by all means, show me a single post where I have ever tried to prove my point via an ad-hominem argument.

Hmmm, I dunno... but I can show you lots of posts where you tried to prove your point using no argument!