The Middle East Conflict Thread

[Moederloos]

Xarog, and I dont mean to offend you, but I do not have the patience to read your long posts.

Yeah. I just scroll over them. Keep it short and sweet is my opinion.
I doubt 1 in 1000 read those long posts.

 

[LazyLion]

After nearly 3500 posts one thing is very clear to me in the thread, those that see no fault with Israel all share a similar trait... don't seem to be very smart and will resort to an ad-hominem response.

Hmmm....

A fallacious objection to an argument or factual claim by appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim

and your post is???.....

can we say.. ironic? hypocritical? stupid?

you have a problem with people who play the man instead of the argument... and you deal with that problem by???? attacking the posters????

 

[d0b33]

Yeah. I just scroll over them. Keep it short and sweet is my opinion.

I rest my case.

 

[Moederloos]

Hmmm....



and your post is???.....

can we say.. ironic? hypocritical? stupid?

you have a problem with people who play the man instead of the argument... and you deal with that problem by???? attacking the posters????

Careful, "stupid" splatters.

 

[Xarog]

Xarog, I'n not gonna even bother trying to explain my posts to you. All you did was quote my posts and then skew the facts in your favour and twist word.

AKA "refuting an argument".

You are already deeply in a state of denial that any other side is wrong other than Hamas.

Not at all. I'm merely pointing out some of the places where Hamas is being unreasonably blamed for the current state of affairs.

First, how do you know what was happening at that school? Were you there? There are videos from 2007 showing Hamas militants firing mortars from a UNWRA school and although Hamas denies firing any mortars from there now (cuz its against international law), the UNWRA doesn't exclude the possibility that they might have.

Simple : First the IDF claims that there was a mortar team there. Then when it was shown that they were lying, and that they were actually showing footage that was over a year old, they withdrew the claim. By this point, remember that they are already lying. THEN the IDF went on to claim that there were gunmen that were firing on them. They were later forced to publicly retract this claim too.

So I don't have to know what was happening at the school. The burden of proof lies on the IDF to conclusively prove that there WERE actually gunmen or mortar teams or whatever in the region. They failed to discharge this responsibility, thus the only reasonable course of action is to actually assume that the civilian target was actually a civilian target. And given the IDF's tendency to misrepresent the truth and their willingness to lie when it furthers their case, I am going to be highly sceptical of any claims they claims they make when they so blatantly attack civilian targets.

Even IF by some means this bombing was a mistake (unlikely, since the UN registered the position of the school via GPS to ensure that Israel knew exactly where it was), there are still other cases that are even more grusome. What about the IDF forcing civilians to take shelter in a building and then bombing it to the floor the very next day? To my knowledge even the IDF didn't try to bother trying their usual claims of "gunmen" or "mortar teams" after this event.

So who knows, it might have been Israel's folly or just an act of self-defense.

The burden of proof lies with the IDF; civilian dead with no proof of militia being in the area = IDF targetting civilians.

In any case, the civilian deaths were unacceptable, and that is partially Hamas' fault for hiding behind their civilians. If Hamas didn't set this precedent and reputation, maybe they would have had more credibility in this case.

Um, no one here is denying that Hamas have done some pretty cruddy things. However, that does not excuse what Israel has done, and unlike with Hamas, there are actually people claiming that Israel is not at fault at all.

And since you wish to apportion blame : How much blame does Israel carry for occupying the Palestinian lands in the first place? Hamas gets its legitimacy from the occupation; Israel is enabling Hamas.

Second, Israel has done a lot to prevent civilian deaths. They have made appeals on the radio letting Gazans know the areas they would bombard, dropped leaflets warning and giving advice to Gazans, and phoning people to let them know of an impeding attack. They would even drop dummy bombs to force people out of their buildings.

Sources for the dummy bombs please. And even if they have done something, it does not excuse them from blatantly attacking civilians when there is absolutely no military objective to be gained by doing so. It is in fact a war crime.

As a result, yes there have been many casualties that shouldn't have happened. And with children making up nearly half of Gaza's population, there have been many children who have died. Israel has made some unwanted attacks on the civilians, but to claim them as intentional is baseless.

Any attack on civilians where there is no evidence of Hamas being anywhere near the bombing site is an intentional bombing act that only killed civilians. It is entirely irrelevant what Israel intended; they did not properly discharge their responsibility regarding not endangering civilians.

They have made clear efforts to avoid civilian deaths, but since Hamas fight as cowards in civilian clothes, obviously it's difficult to differentiate. Hamas has to stop this by stopping their attacks!! Or by protecting their civilians rather than their mujahedin.

It is worth noting that Israel started this whole sorry state of affairs when the occupied the Occupied Territories and stopped all attempts by Palestinians to form a legitimate government. And just as an aside, I can find no record of Hamas calling their members "mujuhideen"

ROFL Amnesty International. Sorry I don't have my tinfoil hat on. Even if that was true it's still not hiding behind their own people

So not the same as Hamas then........

Oh, but I was waiting for this...

http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0310.htm

Strangely, however, after submitting both Israel and Hizbullah to the same test of whether their firepower targeted civilians, HRW deemed it inappropriate to investigate Israel on the second allegation faced by Hizbullah: that it committed a war crime by blending in with its own civilian population. Was there so little prima facie evidence of such behaviour on Israel's side that the organisation decided it was not worth wasting its resources on such an inquiry?

HRW produced two lengthy reports in August 2007, one examining events in Lebanon and the other events in Israel. But the report on what happened inside Israel, "Civilians under Assault", failed to examine Israel's treatment of its own civilians and focused instead only on proving that Hizbullah's firing of its rockets violated international law.

HRW did made a brief reference to the possibility that Israeli military installations were located close to or inside civilian communities. It cited examples of a naval training base next to a hospital in Haifa and a weapons factory built in a civilian community. Its researchers even admitted to watching the Israeli army firing shells into Lebanon from a residential street of the Jewish community of Zarit.

This act of "cowardly blending" by the Israeli army -- to echo the UN envoy Jan Egeland's unwarranted criticism of Hizbullah -- was a war crime. It made Israeli civilians a potential target for Hizbullah reprisal attacks.

So what was HRW's position on this gross violation of the rules of war it had witnessed? After yet again denouncing Hizbullah for its rocket attacks, the report was mealy-mouthed: "Given that indiscriminate fire [by Hizbullah], there is no reason to believe that Israel's placement of certain military assets within these cities added appreciably to the risk facing their residents."

So yes, IDF = Hamas in this context.

 

[STS]

Yeah. I just scroll over them. Keep it short and sweet is my opinion.
I doubt 1 in 1000 read those long posts.

those that read them know what is going on
skimming over them shows a deep lack of interest in the discussion

 

[CTSA]

that is where you are MISINFORMED! hamas doesn't buy rockets, they make their own.

Actually the Grad rockets are made in Iran and the WS-1E are made in China. All smuggled in.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htm

 

[Xarog]

wikipedia

Then you can link directly to the page so that we may examine your evidence.

Do actually expect me and any other rational human being to believe that? That's probably only the amount that Hamas' chooses to inform the public of. They certainly select which audit books their prepared to hand over to the public and other departments. Do you actually think they want "Orders: Iranian Rockets- $250,000,000" written on their books?? Hahaha. Hamas recieves underground funds from various sources and no one will ever know
the exact amount. But to be able to buy thousands of rockets means it must be quite a hefty sum.

Well apparently the CFR are satisfied with the truth of their claims.

Quite wrong :

http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/
(and yes, that IS *the* council on foreign relations, the think tank that pretty much contains a who's-who of influentual Americans... the same CFR to which SEVERAL US presidents (including Clinton) have been members of in the past... in terms of sources giving credence to Hamas claims, it really does not get any better than this)

Is Hamas only a terrorist group?

No. In addition to its military wing, the so-called Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigade, Hamas devotes much of its estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services network. Indeed, the extensive social and political work done by Hamas - and its reputation among Palestinians as averse to corruption - partly explain its defeat of the Fatah old guard in the 2006 legislative vote. Hamas funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. "Approximately 90 percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities," writes the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz. The Palestinian Authority often fails to provide such services, and Hamas's efforts in this area—as well as a reputation for honesty, in contrast to the many Fatah officials accused of corruption—help to explain the broad popularity it summoned to defeat Fatah in the PA's recent elections.

90% of Hamas' efforts are of a social nature. I.e. helping palestinians deal with a crippling blockade which denies them jobs, denies them medicine, denies them food, and denies them power.

Hmmm, I dunno... but I can show you lots of posts where you tried to prove your point using no argument!

Just because you wish to ignore it doesn't mean it ceases to exist.

 

[Alan]

Oh, but I was waiting for this...

http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0310.htm


So yes, IDF = Hamas in this context.

ROFL "brief reference to the possibility". Now Counterpunch as your source. Tsk, tsk off to google to try again.......


EDIT:

First you say "Israelis, no. Gazans, yes " then "this is what I was waiting for"

Starting to get muddled again.......

 

[Xarog]

ROFL "brief reference to the possibility". Now Counterpunch as your source. Tsk, tsk off to google to try again.......

Eyewitness reports of IDF firing from built-up civilian areas = using Israelis as human shields. Point proven, QED. Thanks for playing, you can take your foot out of your mouth now.

Edit : I was waiting for you to show the utter contempt you have for anyone that isn't Israeli or part of the US. Paid of nicely. You seem to think that it's ok for someone to attack civilians as long as those on the receiving end isn't Israeli or American.

 

[LazyLion]

Just because you wish to ignore it doesn't mean it ceases to exist.

Sheesh... "No argument" means there was nothing there in the first place. You are all wordy and flashy, but you rarely say anything of consequence, and 99% of the time you completely fail to prove your point despite your verbose posts.

I think you must be hoping that people will just see all the words you typed and say "Oh, wow... this guy must be genius - look he just made a 1000 word post"!

sorry, it doesn't work that way. Try actually answering the post instead of just throwing a string of words out.

 

[Alan]

Eyewitness reports of IDF firing from built-up civilian areas = using Israelis as human shields. Point proven, QED. Thanks for playing, you can take your foot out of your mouth now.

First you yourself say no then suddenly you produce 'eyewitness reports' stating the opposite to what you yourself had a few minutes claimed. Talk about foot in mouth


Still some leftwing nut claims "eyewitness reports". I guess aliens landed at Roswell as well then

 

[d0b33]

and your post is???.....

I was making an observation not being cornered in an argument and resorting to insults at the person cornering me.

 

[LazyLion]

Careful, "stupid" splatters.

/me wipes shirt...

 

[Xarog]

First you yourself say no then suddenly you produce 'eyewitness reports' stating the opposite to what you yourself had a few minutes claimed. Talk about foot in mouth

You obviously cannot read.

Requoting the part I bolded earlier, only bolding less of it this time :

Israeli military installations were located close to or inside civilian communities. It cited examples of a naval training base next to a hospital in Haifa and a weapons factory built in a civilian community. Its researchers even admitted to watching the Israeli army firing shells into Lebanon from a residential street of the Jewish community of Zarit.

Eyewitnesses which were part of human rights watch witnessed IDF troops using civilians as human shields. QED.

But I suppose you couldn't let the matter rest without swapping feet.

 

[LazyLion]

I was making an observation not being cornered in an argument and resorting to insults at the person cornering me.

You said that other posters on here were using ad hominem arguments, and as proof you offered... nothing... no facts... no argument, no proof.

Do you want me to quote your post as proof?

 

[Xarog]

Sheesh... "No argument" means there was nothing there in the first place. You are all wordy and flashy, but you rarely say anything of consequence, and 99% of the time you completely fail to prove your point despite your verbose posts.

I think you must be hoping that people will just see all the words you typed and say "Oh, wow... this guy must be genius - look he just made a 1000 word post"!

sorry, it doesn't work that way. Try actually answering the post instead of just throwing a string of words out.

My points are coherently made. I make a claim (fairly straightforward), then I provide evidence to back the claim up where neccessary.

And I'm still waiting for you to denounce the IDF using civilians as human shields and the fact that the IDF has deliberately targetted civilians, like you promised you would.

 

[Alan]

You obviously cannot read.

Requoting the part I bolded earlier, only bolding less of it this time :


Eyewitnesses which were part of human rights watch witnessed IDF troops using civilians as human shields. QED.

But I suppose you couldn't let the matter rest without swapping feet.

The point still remains. You clearly stated Israel do not use Israeli civilians as shields and then the very next post you claim they do. Make up your mind lol

As for HRW. ROFL where's my tinfoil hat again. They have as much credibility as Hizbollah and Hamas themselves

 

[Xarog]

The point still remains. You clearly stated Israel do not use Israeli civilians as shields and then the very next post you claim they do. Make up your mind lol

Yes, you cannot read and have trouble with comprehension, we have already established this. Another fine example of the uselessness of OBE.

 

[CTSA]

Simple : First the IDF claims that there was a mortar team there. Then when it was shown that they were lying, and that they were actually showing footage that was over a year old, they withdrew the claim. By this point, remember that they are already lying. THEN the IDF went on to claim that there were gunmen that were firing on them. They were later forced to publicly retract this claim too.

So I don't have to know what was happening at the school. The burden of proof lies on the IDF to conclusively prove that there WERE actually gunmen or mortar teams or whatever in the region. They failed to discharge this responsibility, thus the only reasonable course of action is to actually assume that the civilian target was actually a civilian target. And given the IDF's tendency to misrepresent the truth and their willingness to lie when it furthers their case, I am going to be highly sceptical of any claims they claims they make when they so blatantly attack civilian targets.

Even IF by some means this bombing was a mistake (unlikely, since the UN registered the position of the school via GPS to ensure that Israel knew exactly where it was), there are still other cases that are even more grusome. What about the IDF forcing civilians to take shelter in a building and then bombing it to the floor the very next day? To my knowledge even the IDF didn't try to bother trying their usual claims of "gunmen" or "mortar teams" after this event.

First, Israel never withdrew its claims. There were rumours that they did, but they made an official statement declaring they didn't. And who knows what happened to the soldiers, maybe they were in fact put under disciplinary action. There are so many doubts surrounding this case, that you can't use it as a source to back your statements. Hamas has claimed many things as well. They claim an exaggerated amount of casualties that even the UN disproves, in an attempt to seem like the victim. Hamas is on a constant lying pattern, so how can anyone trust them that there weren't militants there, when there's proof from 2007 that there were possibly still then. Remember, Israel's every single action is being followed by the media, so they wouldn't make any miscalculated risks and attacks.

The Zeitoun incident, on the other hand, was terrible! Whether intentional or by mistake, the incident was one of grave proportions!