The Middle East Conflict Thread

[daveza]

You make a bizarre argument.

The end justifies the means?

 

[Xarog]

Flying pigs? Now there's an original idea. Would strike terror into the Gazans, no doubt.

They claim to be right. I ( Or Israel) claim to be right. In that sense we are the same. May the best man win if there is no other way to resolve this issue.

If the cause of the problem is removed. IMO Hamas et al. Many millions of lives will be saved in the long run. (just how long has this been going on already?)

If you can't see this, it just makes you stupid.

In the last 20 years, the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis has claimed about 20 000 lives, and that is a GENEROUS estimate.

So in order for there to be a net saving of lives, this conflict would have to go on for 75 years, and that's entirely ignoring the fact that killing 1.5 million people is an act of genocide, and exactly the act for which Hitler is so vilified. Plus, it would not solve the problem in the West Bank (another 5 or so million people there... going to kill them too? ).

Now as for who is right, with your viewpoint it really is entirely irrelevant. You are guilty of the very same thing you blame Hamas for. Change a few names regarding who is "evil" and you and Hamas would be the biggest buddies on earth. (Actually, they're probably too moderate for you, but that's another story).

Bottom line : your viewpoint has absolutely no moral standing, and I sincerely hope you never ever get into a position where you have a chance to do something about your views.

 

[Vitowe]

And if hamas preaches exactly this to the palestinians that is ok too ?

They, just like I, am entitled to their opinion. And we must both be prepared to face the consequences of our convictions.

 

[Vitowe]

In the last 20 years, the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis has claimed about 20 000 lives, and that is a GENEROUS estimate.

So in order for there to be a net saving of lives, this conflict would have to go on for 75 years, and that's entirely ignoring the fact that killing 1.5 million people is an act of genocide, and exactly the act for which Hitler is so vilified. Plus, it would not solve the problem in the West Bank (another 5 or so million people there... going to kill them too? ).

Now as for who is right, with your viewpoint it really is entirely irrelevant. You are guilty of the very same thing you blame Hamas for. Change a few names regarding who is "evil" and you and Hamas would be the biggest buddies on earth. (Actually, they're probably too moderate for you, but that's another story).

Bottom line : your viewpoint has absolutely no moral standing, and I sincerely hope you never ever get into a position where you have a chance to do something about your views.

This BS could go on for another 1000 years. An end to it is the objective. The numbers involved are irrelevant.

My post below responds to your second point.

Yes, Hamas and their ilk are extremely fortuneate that I am not in a position of power, this mess would have been sorted out years ago.
Be gratefull for small mercies.

 

[Xarog]

Fundamentalism? Thats a laugh. The only way forward is for hamas to stop violence. Look how well it worked for hezbollah.

Hezbollah never renounced violence and has infact re-affirmed its willingness to meet Israel on the battlefield.

Because you do not want to read the links, I'll quote the stats for you.

3 000 Hezbollah fighters (1 division), held off the entire IAF/IDF for well over 30 days. Israel estimates they could have continued to fight for another 3-4 months. During the conflict they managed to kill as many Israeli soldiers as Israel killed Hezbollah fighters. Hezbollah also managed to destroy no less than 40 tanks. Hezbollah prevented Israel from capturing any part of Lebanese territory. Had it not been for the cease-fire going into effect, there would have been another massacre of Israeli soldiers because Olmert was dumb enough to try to put them on the border of the litani river.

Furthermore, at no period during the war did Israel manage to interrupt Hezbollah's chain of command, something which shocked the hell out of the Israelis when Hezbollah observed the beginning of the cease-fire almost flawlessly.

And in addition to that, Mossad estimates that despite the IAF expending most of their stores of bombs, they only managed to destroy about 7% of Hezbollah's ability to wage war.

On the other hand, Hezbollah managed to crack into Israel's military communications, and they were well appraised of all Israel's moves. Hell, Israel couldn't even knock out al-manar; the TV station which Hezbollah basically runs.

Like I said, Israel was humiliated. The results of the conflict not only meant that Nasrallah was celebrated as a hero in the middle-east, but also got him a lot of support among Lebanese Christians and Lebanese Sunnis.

They stopped shooting, and guess what, israel stopped attacking them.

Actually, Hezbollah got precisely what they wanted. They captured soliders in order to precipitate a prisoner exchange, and after the war that's exactly what happened. Score one for Hezbollah.

If being humiliated means scaring hezbollah so badly that they fall over themselves denying any involvement in atacks on israel then I suppose you're right.

Yes, pointing out that they had nothing to do with attacks is the same as "falling over themselves."

Having troops near a border is not an act of aggression but breaking through it or tunneling under it is. I suppose hamas were just digging holes to plant trees, hey?

Irrelevant. It's the land they're in charge of and they can do with it what they like.

And yet again avoiding answering my question. I cant blame you though, there's no argument to make.

I answered your question, I just corrected the fundamental defects in the analogy first.

You see, Hamas, as the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinians, can pretty much dig whatever holes in Gaza they want, and if Israel doesn't like it, well that's just tough. Just like Hamas can't really complain if Israel decides to dig tunnels on their side of the border.

 

[Xarog]

This BS could go on for another 1000 years. An end to it is the objective. The numbers involved are irrelevant.

My post below responds to your second point.

Yes, Hamas and their ilk are extremely fortuneate that I am not in a position of power, this mess would have been sorted out years ago.
Be gratefull for small mercies.

Sigh.

By that standard, there will always be human conflict, so we better nip it in the bud by killing everyone.

At least Hamas only claims for the destruction of a state. They don't go around advocating genocide, unlike you.

 

[daveza]

By that standard, there will always be human conflict, so we better nip it in the bud by killing everyone.

Thus proving Gandhi's any eye for an eye makes everyone blind.

The ultimate solution - Kill everyone in the entire would for peace.

 

[Vitowe]

Sigh.

By that standard, there will always be human conflict, so we better nip it in the bud by killing everyone.

At least Hamas only claims for the destruction of a state. They don't go around advocating genocide, unlike you.

Kill enough of the right ones and there will be no conflict.

So the destruction of a state does not constitute 'genocide'.???
What is the upper limit of people you can kill before it becomes your version of genocde?
As I have pointed out to you. The numbers are irrelevant.
You can have a war with a small number of casualties or one with a very large number of casualties.
Your stupid double talk is making you look more idiotic with each posting.

I'm going to bed now.

 

[CyraxHB]

Hezbollah never renounced violence and has infact re-affirmed its willingness to meet Israel on the battlefield.

If that were true they would have fired rockets at israel now. This would have been the best time. But they probably have more sence than hamas and know israel will do the same to lebanon as they have done to gaza.

Because you do not want to read the links, I'll quote the stats for you.

I read it but as israels fighting ability was damaged it is irrelevant.

Furthermore, at no period during the war did Israel manage to interrupt Hezbollah's chain of command, something which shocked the hell out of the Israelis when Hezbollah observed the beginning of the cease-fire almost flawlessly.

And in addition to that, Mossad estimates that despite the IAF expending most of their stores of bombs, they only managed to destroy about 7% of Hezbollah's ability to wage war.

On the other hand, Hezbollah managed to crack into Israel's military communications, and they were well appraised of all Israel's moves. Hell, Israel couldn't even knock out al-manar; the TV station which Hezbollah basically runs.

Like I said, Israel was humiliated. The results of the conflict not only meant that Nasrallah was celebrated as a hero in the middle-east, but also got him a lot of support among Lebanese Christians and Lebanese Sunnis.

And yet hezbollah gained very little. Israel is still as powerful as ever and hezbollah is too scared to fire rockets. You can heap as much pro terrorist propaganda on as you like but it wont change these facts.

Actually, Hezbollah got precisely what they wanted. They captured soliders in order to precipitate a prisoner exchange, and after the war that's exactly what happened. Score one for Hezbollah.

So they got a few prisoners back. Hundreds of their fellow citizens and fighters were killed and massive damage was done to lebanon. Although, I do think isreal should stop holding back in these engagements and should consider using their entire arsenal.

Yes, pointing out that they had nothing to do with attacks is the same as "falling over themselves."

You're the one who said hezbollah were ready to fight. Seems they were'nt.

Irrelevant. It's the land they're in charge of and they can do with it what they like.

Wow you're naive.

I answered your question, I just corrected the fundamental defects in the analogy first.

No, you actually twisted my words to suit your pro terrorist agenda, as usual.

You see, Hamas, as the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinians, can pretty much dig whatever holes in Gaza they want, and if Israel doesn't like it, well that's just tough. Just like Hamas can't really complain if Israel decides to dig tunnels on their side of the border.

Except that hamas admits it digs tunnels to smuggle weapons and I think they even admitted that the purpose of the tunell they were digging was to kidnap israeli soldiers. Thats as good as a declaration of war. And as hamas was elected by the people, they represent all the people and so all the people are responsible. Those are the realities of war.

 

[Generix]

Many years later.... everyone has forgot my evil begins ....

I now have grand children and need more space I need my yard back (yes it is now my yard back) I come up with a cunning idea, i stop the water supply to my yard and wait for the stones!

Two weeks later .... a dozen stones get thrown over the wall.....

Now i can start the tactic to take over of the yard and get rid of the some stone throwers...

Sorry, sorry, humble apologies ... you are a bigger bully than I have given you credit for

In all reality its sad, that one can even acknowledge Israel. They are a terrorist nation who carried out terrorist tactics and continue to do them.

An interesting trend I notice in this thread is the recurring argument that Israel is operating from a position of strength/has the biggest stick etc. and, therefore, it is reasonable that Hamas/Palestinians as the weaker party must make concessions and/or not get above themselves and demand fair treatment.

Such reasoning seems to be based on the premise that 'might is right'. It totally ignores - and in some cases outright rejects - any principles of law or justice. The argument is usually based on pragmatic considerations (Israel will never blah-blah because blah-blah, therefore blah-blah), but underlying causes are hardly ever addressed. Pragmatic 'solutions' are imo not only mostly unjust, they are unfortunately no better than a flimsy lid on a pressure cooker. They solve nothing, just delay an inevitable reaction.

 

[Xarog]

Kill enough of the right ones and there will be no conflict.

I suppose you will include yourself in the group that constitutes the 'right ones'?

So the destruction of a state does not constitute 'genocide'.???

Indeed not. If South Africa assassinated Mad Bob and annexed Zimbabwe, then the state of Zimbabwe would be destroyed and yet only 1 man would die.

Curious how Hamas has repeatedly stated that they don't have any beef with Jews, don't you think?

You can have a war with a small number of casualties or one with a very large number of casualties.
Your stupid double talk is making you look more idiotic with each posting.

Lol, I think you're mistaking your posts for mine.

I'm going to bed now.

Do us a favour and don't come back.

 

[Xarog]

If that were true they would have fired rockets at israel now.

Well, unlike Israel, they truly are only interested in defending the land they live on. What purpose would firing rockets at Israel serve Hezbollah?

I read it but as israels fighting ability was damaged it is irrelevant.

LOL!

If you say so.

And yet hezbollah gained very little.

On the contrary. They initiated a conflict with Israel and ended up achieving their original aims. I would put that in the "gained everything they wanted" category.

Israel is still as powerful as ever and hezbollah is too scared to fire rockets.

Wrong.

You can heap as much pro terrorist propaganda on as you like but it wont change these facts.

So not only do you have the mistaken belief that Israel is a country which operates upon justice, but you are also delusional as to their actual strength.

So they got a few prisoners back. Hundreds of their fellow citizens and fighters were killed and massive damage was done to lebanon. Although, I do think isreal should stop holding back in these engagements and should consider using their entire arsenal.

They threw everything short of nuclear warheads at Lebanon. They were the laughing stock of the middle east.

You're the one who said hezbollah were ready to fight. Seems they were'nt.

They're still entirely willing to fight for the defence of Lebanon. They consider themselves to be a resistance militia. Again, what purpose would it serve to attack Israel right now? Perhaps you are mistakenly thinking that they're rabid israeli-hating terrorists that want to see every Jew dead?

Wow you're naive.

It's also the accepted legal position in international law. Israel violated this principle. Israel is thus to blame for the break-down in the cease-fire. It might also be added that had Israel upheld their side of the cease-fire agreement, Hamas would have had absolutely no incentive to tunnel under the border (if that's even what they were doing in the first place). They've admitted that during the cease-fire, Hamas did not fire a single rocket at Israel, so why did they not honour their side of the agreement?

Fail.

No, you actually twisted my words to suit your pro terrorist agenda, as usual.

Nope. Israel and Gaza are neighbours. Hamas was on the Gazan side of the border. I think that pretty much justifies pointing out that your analogy needs the purported robber to (A) be on his land, and that (B) there is no clear evidence of any hostile intent.

Except that hamas admits it digs tunnels to smuggle weapons and I think they even admitted that the purpose of the tunell they were digging was to kidnap israeli soldiers.

Source please. And "I think" does not qualify.

 

[CyraxHB]

Well, unlike Israel, they truly are only interested in defending the land they live on. What purpose would firing rockets at Israel serve Hezbollah?

As the arabs have tried to destroy israel so many times and failed, firing rockets is all they can do now.

LOL!

If you say so.

Just a typo.

On the contrary. They initiated a conflict with Israel and ended up achieving their original aims. I would put that in the "gained everything they wanted" category.

And got some massive destruction in lebanon with it. And israel stopped the rockets so they also got what they wanted.

I'm glad you admit hezbollah started the conflict. Ill keep that one in my pocket for when you start claiming that your poor terrorists are always the victims.

Wrong.

Wrong.

So not only do you have the mistaken belief that Israel is a country which operates upon justice, but you are also delusional as to their actual strength.

LOL, israel has the military capability to destroy the entire middle east. In fact, it is as easy as pressing a few buttons seeing as they have nukes.

They threw everything short of nuclear warheads at Lebanon. They were the laughing stock of the middle east.

As if that matters when the middle east is the laughing stock of the world.

They're still entirely willing to fight for the defence of Lebanon. They consider themselves to be a resistance militia. Again, what purpose would it serve to attack Israel right now? Perhaps you are mistakenly thinking that they're rabid israeli-hating terrorists that want to see every Jew dead?

The problem is, as you mentioned above, hezbollah is more interested in starting conflicts that preventing them. Of course they are "rabid israeli-hating terrorists", havent you been paying attention.

It's also the accepted legal position in international law. Israel violated this principle. Israel is thus to blame for the break-down in the cease-fire. It might also be added that had Israel upheld their side of the cease-fire agreement, Hamas would have had absolutely no incentive to tunnel under the border (if that's even what they were doing in the first place). They've admitted that during the cease-fire, Hamas did not fire a single rocket at Israel, so why did they not honour their side of the agreement?

Fail.

Hamas admits to wanting to destroy israel so they will always have an incentive to tunnel under the border. Come on, keep up.

Therefore, fail.

Nope. Israel and Gaza are neighbours. Hamas was on the Gazan side of the border. I think that pretty much justifies pointing out that your analogy needs the purported robber to (A) be on his land, and that (B) there is no clear evidence of any hostile intent.

So if bin laden is tunnelling under the US border with a nuke in his towel, you think the border guards should just wave to him and not do anything? Perhaps only doing something when the bomb goes off perhaps? Your logic is very entertaining.

Source please. And "I think" does not qualify.

Thats your opinion. So you think they were digging tunnels to plant trees then? What other reason could there be?

 

[Xarog]

As the arabs have tried to destroy israel so many times and failed, firing rockets is all they can do now.

You expect anyone to take you seriously if you do not even bother to investigate what an organisation is, what their stated aims are, and where they come from?

Edit: Because you probably need someone to hold your hand :

Hezbollah has not been involved in any suicide bombing since Israel withdrew from Lebanon.[87][88] After the September 11, 2001 attacks, Hezbollah condemned Al Qaeda for targeting the civilian World Trade Center, but remained silent on the attack on the The Pentagon, neither favoring nor opposing the act.[11][89] Hezbollah also denounced the Armed Islamic Group massacres in Algeria, Al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya attacks on tourists in Egypt,[90] and the murder of Nick Berg.[91] In a 2006 interview with the Washington Post, Nasrallah condemned violence against American civilians.[89]

Just a typo.

Then pray tell, tell us what you actually mean.

And got some massive destruction in lebanon with it. And israel stopped the rockets so they also got what they wanted.

Actually, at the start of the war, they claimed they wanted to destroy Hezbollah. Then it was that they wanted a "security buffer". As each objective became impossible, they shifted the goals. Finally they settled on having "peace", which is pretty dumb for anyone who invaded another country.

I'm glad you admit hezbollah started the conflict. Ill keep that one in my pocket for when you start claiming that your poor terrorists are always the victims.

Actually, Hezbollah fighters on the borders had standing orders to kidnap Israeli soldiers in response to Israel reneging on its agreements with Hezbollah. Nice try, but no cigar.

Wrong.

Whatever you say.

LOL, israel has the military capability to destroy the entire middle east. In fact, it is as easy as pressing a few buttons seeing as they have nukes.

But they're evenly matched by 3 000 militia in conventional combat, despite spending billions of dollars worth of bombs in the matter of days.

As if that matters when the middle east is the laughing stock of the world.

4th most powerful army in the world matched evenly by 3 000 dedicated militia.

The problem is, as you mentioned above, hezbollah is more interested in starting conflicts that preventing them.

Quite on the contrary. They're willing to fight to defend themselves and Lebanese people in general against foreign agressors. That is the extent to which they are willing to engage in conflicts.

Of course they are "rabid israeli-hating terrorists", havent you been paying attention.

Ipse dixit.

Hamas admits to wanting to destroy israel so they will always have an incentive to tunnel under the border. Come on, keep up.

Lol, ya, they're going to destroy Israel by digging tunnels.

Therefore, fail.

On your part, yes.

So if bin laden is tunnelling under the US border with a nuke in his towel, you think the border guards should just wave to him and not do anything?

Um, proven liars claim that Hamas intended to tunnel under the border, but even they aren't daft enough to claim that Hamas was actually tunneling under the border.

Your logic is very entertaining.

One could say the same about your lack of it.

Thats your opinion. So you think they were digging tunnels to plant trees then? What other reason could there be?

I take it then that you have no proof for your assertion that Hamas admitted to tunneling under the border.

 

[CyraxHB]

Then pray tell, tell us what you actually mean.

Israel is stronger than ever and hezbollah can do very little to change that.

But they're evenly matched by 3 000 militia in conventional combat, despite spending billions of dollars worth of bombs in the matter of days.

I'd like to see 3000 militia stand up to a nuke.

4th most powerful army in the world matched evenly by 3 000 dedicated militia.

lol, if you say so.

I'm sure hezbollah say that to themselves every night before going to bed.

The rest of your post is basically the same old propaganda you have been regurgitating for the last few hundred posts. Mostly irrelevant and has most likely been written just to have some sort of come back. For that is the only way you can convince yourself that you are winning.

 

[Xarog]

Israel is stronger than ever and hezbollah can do very little to change that.

Hezbollah is quite happy to defend Lebanon, and quite capable of doing exactly that.

I'd like to see 3000 militia stand up to a nuke.

Well, seeing as they wouldn't really be in the same area, I suppose you might kill 100-200.

lol, if you say so.

Did they defeat Hezbollah? No. Did they manage to drive Hezbollah away from the border? No. Did they lose 40 tanks to Hezbollah? Yes. Did Hezbollah kill 1 IDF soldier for every Hezbollah fighter killed? Yes.

So yes, I do say so. You can pretend to live in your fairytale land were it's IDF uber alles if you want, but sadly reality differs.

The rest of your post is basically the same old propaganda you have been regurgitating for the last few hundred posts. Mostly irrelevant and has most likely been written just to have some sort of come back. For that is the only way you can convince yourself that you are winning.

Confusing your posts for my posts again.

 

[CyraxHB]

Hezbollah is quite happy to defend Lebanon, and quite capable of doing exactly that.


Well, seeing as they wouldn't really be in the same area, I suppose you might kill 100-200.


Did they defeat Hezbollah? No. Did they manage to drive Hezbollah away from the border? No. Did they lose 40 tanks to Hezbollah? Yes. Did Hezbollah kill 1 IDF soldier for every Hezbollah fighter killed? Yes.

So yes, I do say so. You can pretend to live in your fairytale land were it's IDF uber alles if you want, but sadly reality differs.


Confusing your posts for my posts again.

You can defend internationally recognised terrorist organisations till the cows come home, it still wont make you right.

 

[Xarog]

You can defend internationally recognised terrorist organisations till the cows come home, it still wont make you right.

There's only 4 countries which declare Hezbollah to be a terrorist organisation, and only 2 which declare that Hezbollah's military wing is a terrorist organisation.

So much for "internationally recognised".


And just remember : you were the one who falsely claimed that Hezbollah had been cowed by the IDF. The reality is quite the opposite. Any other "defense" of Hezbollah is merely correcting your icorrect claims about them.

 

[JHatman]

Well, seeing as they wouldn't really be in the same area, I suppose you might kill 100-200.

I dunno mate, there are nukes in existence that would sucessfully destroy the entire Middle East with one hit aka Tsar Bomb but really, anybody who uses a weapon like this is either out of his godam f**n mind...or Russian. It left a crater so big you could fit all of Gauteng inside of it. God forbid that thing should ever be used on any nation, it would change the world forever.

Makind currently has at his disposal the capacity to destroy the world, to eradicate all living life from this earth and to rend our planet useless. We must certainly be proud of our achievements, the power to give life and the power to take it away. We can now play god and to a capacity we are now god's of our own world. What an accomplishment. Even Barbarossa boasted of this accomplishment so we need to ask ourselves, how far have we really come??

Anybody with some savvy can see we're headed for another world war. The Bible predicts that Israel will eventually infuriate all nations to the point that they will rise up against Israel and attempt to destroy them. This event is known as Armageddon, when the entire world will declare war against Israel.

The Bible says that this battle will be so intense than rivers will run with blood and the only escape will be for women and children to hide in caves and flee to the mountains.

After the Hiroshima bombings, people noted that the river running through Hiroshima turned red, this was because of the radiation acting against the iron content in the water.

According to Bibical fact, one can certainly draw conclustions. It will enevitbly be an Arab vs Israeli conflict

Israel has it easy now, but as their own Bible predicts, life is going to get extremely complicated for them in the future.

 

[d0b33]

The Bible says that this battle will be so intense than rivers will run with blood and the only escape will be for women and children to hide in caves and flee to the mountains.

Ok using you logic...
The Bible says Jews are forbidden from creating their homeland after their exile and that only the Messiah can create a Jewish nation. Now what happened in 1897 was that the world zionist organization was founded and in 1917 Balfour signed a promise to give land to Jews in Palestine for a state... what happened not long after? the holocaust.

So God punished them using your logic and the reason there is no peace is because God does not accept their nation as a legitimate holy nation using your logic.