The very least you could do before showing yourself to be an idiot is read this and the related thread through. Your ridiculous point has already been covered.
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The very least you could do before showing yourself to be an idiot is read this and the related thread through. Your ridiculous point has already been covered.
more like "sidestepped"
Only in your mind.
Well judging by his post, he must have read this and the other thread through and never really found an explanation to the hypocrisy.
Bona Botse
A little insight goes a long way
here come the insults :eisaan:
look, i'm not saying what he did was right, because technically it was wrong, and i dont really care. but i was reacting to those who said things like "if i was to kill an animal i would do it quick fast" and "animals shouldnt be killed for traditional reasons. i'm going hunting this weekend"
eish, nevamind icyrus
dlk001
Executive Member
Thanks Myrrdin,
Personally, I think Yengeni needed jail cleansing and "ukungxengxeza" to the public. I don't think there are any evil spirits inside him/family that lead to the sins he served jail for. That is my personal opinion because of his reported reputation.
Taking my opinion outside, one has to ask themselves “ Do I think Yengeni’s cleansing ceremony is something to mislead us to believing that he is changing for the better or do I think he is being sincere?” His family’s ancestors will be the judge of that ceremony and we as the public, justifiable will have different opinions about the ceremony and Yengeni.
Going back to the cleansing ritual. At any Xhosa ritual, the animal being slaughtered must cry to evoke the ancestors. When a goat or sheep is used in a ceremony, it is slaughtered with a sharp instrument. When a cow is used for traditional purposes, it is killed with a spear in my experience.
This is a very sensitive issue if you were to carry such a ritual in a suburb. Most times, in a modern society, the rituals are carried with flexibility while maintaining the essence.
Flexibility would be to slaughter the animal in Gugulethu (extended family home) and carry other necessities in say Claremont (suburb).
If the SPCA argued against slaughter of the animal in Gugulethu, then it’s an issue that the law will have to deal with.
Was Yengeni’s ceremony done correctly and in accordance with the Xhosa rituals?
YES, because a cow needed to be slaughtered to evoke the ancestors and the cow needed to be killed with a spear.
NO, if the SPCA finds that over and above the cultural ritual process, there was an element of torture involved.
At the end of the day, we have to respect the SPCA and the Law in this issue.
ToxicBunny
Oi! Leave me out of this...
dlk001 : thank you... well reasoned and stated... and something I agree with in essence. Personally I don't agree with making an animal cry out to appease any ancestors, but thats my own "culture/tradition"... I do still have a problem with slaughtering an animal in Gugulethu, because it is a residential area, and probably more tightly packed than places like Claremont... but that is an issue for the SPCA and the Law to deal with.
My big worry is because its TY, that the whole issue will get brushed under the carpet, and there will never be a clear resolution on the matter.
My big worry is because its TY, that the whole issue will get brushed under the carpet, and there will never be a clear resolution on the matter.
Myrrdin
Expert Member
No, thank you my friend, I stand corrected.
I agree with Toxicbunny, a well reasoned and stated reply. I grew up on a farm in the northern cape and the culture I grew up with was and is a beautifull thing. That culture from my youth co-existed with nature in harmony. That is why this claim by Yengeni infuriated me so much. As you say we have to wait and see if the SPCA do find unnessary cruelness.
I am only asking this question because I want to know more. For ukungxengxeza isnt there suppose to be several cattle slaughtered and by the inkozi. The participants are then and I quote from http://singh.reshma.tripod.com/alternation/alternation6_1/14MASOG.htm "Utshwala is prepared and served to the ritual participants to both indicate their participation and to evoke the amadlozi." (Maybe translate Utshwala and amadlozi for us) I also read some on http://www.nalane.net/xhosa/english/passage-rites.htm the xhosa resource. I dont see the participants required to participate in the slaughter itself being a requirement.
I dont know but it just seems that the whole thing carries an almost undetectable wrongness about it. Although the ritual may exist the how of the whole exercise seems to be convaluted and false. But to the sincerity of Yengeni, as you say let the ancesters be the judge of that and let the law decide about the cruelty.
PS I know this is going to sound weepy but this, this discussion feels right, this feels like mutual respect and together we can look at the future and face it shoulder to shoulder. I know its weepy, sorry.
I agree with Toxicbunny, a well reasoned and stated reply. I grew up on a farm in the northern cape and the culture I grew up with was and is a beautifull thing. That culture from my youth co-existed with nature in harmony. That is why this claim by Yengeni infuriated me so much. As you say we have to wait and see if the SPCA do find unnessary cruelness.
I am only asking this question because I want to know more. For ukungxengxeza isnt there suppose to be several cattle slaughtered and by the inkozi. The participants are then and I quote from http://singh.reshma.tripod.com/alternation/alternation6_1/14MASOG.htm "Utshwala is prepared and served to the ritual participants to both indicate their participation and to evoke the amadlozi." (Maybe translate Utshwala and amadlozi for us) I also read some on http://www.nalane.net/xhosa/english/passage-rites.htm the xhosa resource. I dont see the participants required to participate in the slaughter itself being a requirement.
I dont know but it just seems that the whole thing carries an almost undetectable wrongness about it. Although the ritual may exist the how of the whole exercise seems to be convaluted and false. But to the sincerity of Yengeni, as you say let the ancesters be the judge of that and let the law decide about the cruelty.
PS I know this is going to sound weepy but this, this discussion feels right, this feels like mutual respect and together we can look at the future and face it shoulder to shoulder. I know its weepy, sorry.
ToxicBunny
Oi! Leave me out of this...
V weepy.. *shakes head*...
But its true, we need to discuss things like this.. discussion leads to understanding...
and now my puppy is barking at me.. so i must be off to play for a bit...
But its true, we need to discuss things like this.. discussion leads to understanding...
and now my puppy is barking at me.. so i must be off to play for a bit...
Nonsense. You're one of the worst Afrikaner bashers around.
Tibby, while I tend to lean more towards your political ideologies than a lot of people on this forum, I think you could take a leaf from dlk001's book in terms of non-confrontational, constructive debate.
Dlk managed to put his point across in such a manner that people said "oh yes, I see what he means", instead of getting pissed off.
Just a suggestion. Use it, don't use it....
Dlk managed to put his point across in such a manner that people said "oh yes, I see what he means", instead of getting pissed off.
Just a suggestion. Use it, don't use it....