The Sandy Hook Elementary School Shootings

Re: Shooting at Connecticut school. 27 dead including 18 children

I'm dumbfounded that this debate continues considering that the state has some of the toughest gun laws in the country. In another state with much lax gun restrictions and easily obtainable open carry permits, a planned killing spree at a school was stopped before it started.
 
BandwidthAddict said:
I'm dumbfounded that this debate continues considering that the state has some of the toughest gun laws in the country. In another state with much lax gun restrictions and easily obtainable open carry permits, a planned killing spree at a school was stopped before it started.
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that didn't happen in New York earlier this year. It also didn't happen in Norway last year..
 
Shooting at Connecticut school. 27 dead including 18 children

So ... the debate still focuses on guns ... and not the real cause of the incident. Everybody focuses on the HOW and not the WHY. Sad how the Media manages to divert the focus from a mess they helped create ... a mess in which an automatic assault rifle is just a very convenient TOOL. Why do kids do this? Because they like guns? Or because they have other problems?

I can see how the real issues are again conveniently hidden away and covered with a blanket called "get rid of the guns". A society is created by law where schools and parents are not allowed to discipline kids anymore ... where kids are given pills to drink to stay cool/calm and civilized. And then the pills make things worse ... or it runs out ... or the dosage needed adjustment (oops too late, kid went crazy).

While you guys debate guns I'm going to hack into the local hospital and switch off all power and kill all the support systems ... my pills ran out two days ago and my medical aid well ran dry six months ago.
 
BeVonk! said:
So ... the debate still focuses on guns ... and not the real cause of the incident. Everybody focuses on the HOW and not the WHY. Sad how the Media manages to divert the focus from a mess they helped create ... a mess in which an automatic assault rifle is just a very convenient TOOL. Why do kids do this? Because they like guns? Or because they have other problems?

I can see how the real issues are again conveniently hidden away and covered with a blanket called "get rid of the guns". A society is created by law where schools and parents are not allowed to discipline kids anymore ... where kids are given pills to drink to stay cool/calm and civilized. And then the pills make things worse ... or it runs out ... or the dosage needed adjustment (oops too late, kid went crazy).

While you guys debate guns I'm going to hack into the local hospital and switch off all power and kill all the support systems ... my pills ran out two days ago and my medical aid well ran dry six months ago.
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As I said before, this has nothing to do with guns, this has to do with America and their sick society.
Do not get me wrong, I love the USA but the system and the society is rotting away.

Too much freedom.
Hollywood is poisoning our minds, we worship drug addicted stars, killing etc etc.
Anything that is bad, we want and we demand it now.
Family values are out the window.

We are all to blame.
 
I still believe the media is to blame, not music or films but news, advertising and what is and what is not socially acceptable. A country using fear to sell products will have way too many psychopaths emerge form the underlying community all these corporations rely on. Due to the problem at hand I can actually say that they maybe should have a look at the 2nd amendment just to have some sort of control on firearms. Unfortunately people will find methods of killing but it might be a start?
 
Re: Shooting at Connecticut school. 27 dead including 18 children

In an ideal world no person other than the police, army and secury should be allowed to own a gun, and there should be no reason to have one for self defense. The only guns allowed if we really have to, is hunting rifles.

In SA, of all places we have the biggest concern for self defense, yet I dont know a single person who owns a gun, apart from one or two who own a hunting rifle. Yet many USA people argue for having guns for self defence. I saw articles stating 17 000 murders a year in USA of which 85% or whatever is gun related. Well in SA we have 20 000 murders a year and we have a fraction of the US population.

Realistically, owning a handgun wont really increase your chances of survival in a armed robbery because by the time you know what is going on you will already be shot at or dead. No one should be allowed to carry a weapon designed to kill. Too many people dont know how to use it and it is actually a frighteningly powerful thing to allow some average Joe to walk around with.

This shooting would not have happened if guns were not so readily available. Sure, he could have used someone elses gun, but he still have to find someone with a gun. He could have used a hunting rifle, but it is almost impossible to conceal and it is not for shooting many targets in succession. He could have built a bomb, but then you would need some knowledge and risk blowing up your own house. Also needs a fair amount of strategic planning. Hanguns make things too easy, be it murder or suicide. With a simple pull of a trigger you end a life.
 
Shooting at Connecticut school. 27 dead including 18 children

Stefanmuller said:
In an ideal world no person other than the police, army and secury should be allowed to own a gun, and there should be no reason to have one for self defense. The only guns allowed if we really have to, is hunting rifles.

In SA, of all places we have the biggest concern for self defense, yet I dont know a single person who owns a gun, apart from one or two who own a hunting rifle. Yet many USA people argue for having guns for self defence. I saw articles stating 17 000 murders a year in USA of which 85% or whatever is gun related. Well in SA we have 20 000 murders a year and we have a fraction of the US population.

Realistically, owning a handgun wont really increase your chances of survival in a armed robbery because by the time you know what is going on you will already be shot at or dead. No one should be allowed to carry a weapon designed to kill. Too many people dont know how to use it and it is actually a frighteningly powerful thing to allow some average Joe to walk around with.

This shooting would not have happened if guns were not so readily available. Sure, he could have used someone elses gun, but he still have to find someone with a gun. He could have used a hunting rifle, but it is almost impossible to conceal and it is not for shooting many targets in succession. He could have built a bomb, but then you would need some knowledge and risk blowing up your own house. Also needs a fair amount of strategic planning. Hanguns make things too easy, be it murder or suicide. With a simple pull of a trigger you end a life.
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Surely the ideal world would have no need for police, army and security?
 
Re: Shooting at Connecticut school. 27 dead including 18 children

Albereth said:
Surely the ideal world would have no need for police, army and security?
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There will always be a need for police to keep the hanful of criminals at bay. In SA though the number of criminals almost renders the police useless. In my ideal world a locked front door, burglar bars and maybe an alarm should be more than enough to ensure my safety. If I have to get a gun to feel safe then I am really living in a effed up world.
 
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Luckily Harvard did a study not so long ago on gun censorship, people often only point out low crimes with gun regulation in western Europe countries, while they for some other reason (I'm guessing to deliberately distort facts) neglect Brazil and Russia or other countries with heavy regulation, in their statistics.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

CONCLUSION
This Article has reviewed a significant amount of evidence
from a wide variety of international sources. Each individual
portion of evidence is subject to cavil—at the very least the
general objection that the persuasiveness of social scientific
evidence cannot remotely approach the persuasiveness of
conclusions in the physical sciences. Nevertheless, the bur‐
den of proof rests on the proponents of the more guns equal
more death and fewer guns equal less death mantra, espe‐
cially since they argue public policy ought to be based on
that mantra.
149
To bear that burden would at the very least
require showing that a large number of nations with more
guns have more death and that nations that have imposed
stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions
in criminal violence (or suicide). But those correlations are
not observed when a large number of nations are compared
across the world.
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the arguments against gun ownership might be well and everything, however the empirical facts do not agree with them.
 
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Nicodeamus said:
the arguments against gun ownership might be well and everything, however the empirical facts do not agree with them.
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Except the study is nonsense. Table 2 has Luxembourg's murder rate as 9.01.

The Guardian has it at 0.4 around 2004

Nationmaster has it around 0.9 for 2002

Trading Economics has it at 0.4 around 2004

UNODC has it at around 1.5 in 2006



Where did Messrs Kate and Mauser get their info from, any idea?
 
Shooting at Connecticut school. 27 dead including 18 children

Stefanmuller said:
There will always be a need for police to keep the hanful of criminals at bay. In SA though the number of criminals almost renders the police useless. In my ideal world a locked front door, burglar bars and maybe an alarm should be more than enough to ensure my safety. If I have to get a gun to feel safe then I am really living in a effed up world.
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You are living in the real world, not an ideal world.
 
Nicodeamus said:
Luckily Harvard did a study not so long ago on gun censorship, people often only point out low crimes with gun regulation in western Europe countries, while they for some other reason (I'm guessing to deliberately distort facts) neglect Brazil and Russia or other countries with heavy regulation, in their statistics.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

The authors:

Don B. Kates
http://www.nradefensefund.org/supported-research.aspx

Gary Mauser
http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/i...-gun-registry-doesn't-work-and-never-did.aspx
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