The ZAR Exchange Rate Thread

[Space_Chief]

But they make Apple

So?

 

[Space_Chief]

Many of you are missing the most important ingredient that countries like South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and soon China had in common. Education, and not run-of-the-mill education you get in other first world countries like the USA, UK etc. Those kids spend an insane amount of time in school, and even go to school after school. It's not unheard of for kids in East Asia to be in the classroom until 23:00.

You see you don't need cram school to be a good worker in a factory. These cram schools initially in Japan and later Taiwan and ? Korea are about getting into the best universities. But that's if you want to get into the best university or the best course. If you're gonna be assembling walkmans for Sony or microwave ovens for Matsu****a you don't need that. Sure you get good innovators and engineers but the likes of the Japanese showed they could adapt to Western education and knowledge very quickly from the 1800s. When did Perry open up Japan (1853) and when did Japan become a dominant sea faring nation? Continuing at that rate the Japanese would have easily conquered the British Empire if that still existed in the 20th century.

That's part of the reason they were able to industrialise so quickly and become dominant economies despite having low populations (Excluding China and Japan). Some might think it's too harsh but I bet it cuts down on delinquency as well since all that school keeps kids off the street and forces them not to spend so much time screwing around playing video games, loitering, partying etc. Academic competition is embedded in the culture over there.

I think it's the culture rather. The social order is such that people don't stand out and rely on their elders and superiors to know better. They also are able to work for the good of their nation. Japan is a very nationalistic state and the same is occurring in Korea and China.
People are just more loyal in that regard. In the West people now feel shame about their heritage, the Japanese still revere their WW2 soldiers. They still hunt dolphins and whales. They still have heavy restrictions on immigration which are actually common among all East Asian nations.

They also pump out insane numbers of technical graduates. Their tertiary course choices are more pragmatic. None of this "do what you love" BS. Kids go study engineering, accounting, computer science etc. because taking care of your parents in their old age is common over there, and that requires money a sociology/music graduate isn't going to make.

Yes but that's also failing behind as Western BS contaminates them too.

 

[Knyro]

You see you don't need cram school to be a good worker in a factory. These cram schools initially in Japan and later Taiwan and ? Korea are about getting into the best universities. But that's if you want to get into the best university or the best course.If you're gonna be assembling walkmans for Sony or microwave ovens for Matsu****a you don't need that.

Regardless of why they study so much at the end of the day you end up with a highly educated population that's used to working long hours. This is very good for a country even if many of them end up as factory workers. You still end up with better factory workers too. An educated person can pick up and learn how to assemble an engine made up of over a thousand parts quicker than some ordinary slacker kid.

Sure you get good innovators and engineers but the likes of the Japanese showed they could adapt to Western education and knowledge very quickly from the 1800s.When did Perry open up Japan (1853) and when did Japan become a dominant sea faring nation? Continuing at that rate the Japanese would have easily conquered the British Empire if that still existed in the 20th century.

Japan knew that they would eventually be invaded and given a serious PK if they let Westerners outpace them too much technologically. They were also forced to sign unequal treaties with Westerners. They had serious incentive to advance quickly.

I think it's the culture rather. The social order is such that people don't stand out and rely on their elders and superiors to know better. They also are able to work for the good of their nation.

This mentality is actually what caused them to fall behind Europe in the first place and had dire consequences, especially in China's case.

Japan is a very nationalistic state and the same is occurring in Korea and China.
People are just more loyal in that regard. In the West people now feel shame about their heritage, the Japanese still revere their WW2 soldiers. They still hunt dolphins and whales. They still have heavy restrictions on immigration which are actually common among all East Asian nations.

Perhaps their nationalism adds to their sucess but it's not the be all and end all IMO. Many other Asian countries share similar cultural values but are still poor and dysfunctional. Until they sort out their education as well they'll stay where they are and be poor.

Yes but that's also failing behind as Western BS contaminates them too.

I guess it's bound to happen in any cushy society.

 

[Space_Chief]

Regardless of why they study so much at the end of the day you end up with a highly educated population. This is very good for a country even if many of them end up as factory workers. You still end up with better factory workers too. An educated person can pick up and learn how to assemble an engine made up of over a thousand parts quicker than some ordinary slacker kid.

No not everyone in Japan studied like this. Only the kids who had ambitions to go to really good degrees. For every engineer there there are many ordinary salarymen and office ladies. Your average worker wasn't highly educated. Maybe even went to a tech oriented high school and then got on the job training. There were and are also vocational schools where people can go to enter a trade, for example be a bank clerk or a hospital orderly. What these people do have, by the large, is a work ethic and a feeling of responsibility. They worked hard, in exchange for benefits and support from the company. They were loyal to their country, family and company. The emperor signified the country. He is still a very revered figure there.

Japan knew that they would eventually be invaded and given a serious PK if they let westerners outpace them too much technologically. It was learn or die.

Lots of countries knew this yet were not able to deliver.

This mentality is actually what caused them to fall behind Europe in the first place and had dire consequences, especially in China's case.

No. Japan was isolated from Europe and science never developed there on a large scale as a worldview of inquiry. They only traded a bit with the Dutch but then for 200 odd years prior to Perry they were pretty much isolated - they did so on their own. It was a political move and had nothing to do with their culture, only during the Meiji Restoration did they reopen ties and learn from the West. Their culture allows them to have a very low crime rate and support each other when things go bad. It's a good thing. Their culture allowed them to be strong pre-WW1 (kick the Russian navy's butt), and then in WW2 and finally after WW2.

Perhaps their nationalism adds to their sucess but it's not the be all and end all IMO. Many other Asian countries share similar cultural values but are still poor and dysfunctional. Until they sort out their education as well they'll stay where they are and be poor.

Japan has been very, very successful. Especially successful. I agree it's not the only factor.

 

[Knyro]

No not everyone in Japan studied like this. Only the kids who had ambitions to go to really good degrees. For every engineer there there are many ordinary salarymen and office ladies. Your average worker wasn't highly educated. Maybe even went to a tech oriented high school and then got on the job training. There were and are also vocational schools where people can go to enter a trade, for example be a bank clerk or a hospital orderly. What these people do have, by the large, is a work ethic and a feeling of responsibility. They worked hard, in exchange for benefits and support from the company. They were loyal to their country, family and company. The emperor signified the country. He is still a very revered figure there.

I'm obviously speaking very generally here. Obviously not everyone but I'd wager the average Japanese kid is more educated than the average SA kid by quite some margin.

Lots of countries knew this yet were not able to deliver.

Lots of countries never had the chance to deliver. They were PK'd instantly.

No. Japan was isolated from Europe and science never developed there on a large scale as a worldview of inquiry. They only traded a bit with the Dutch but then for 200 odd years prior to Perry they were pretty much isolated - they did so on their own. It was a political move and had nothing to do with their culture, only during the Meiji Restoration did they reopen ties and learn from the West. Their culture allows them to have a very low crime rate and support each other when things go bad.

It's a good thing. Their culture allowed them to be strong pre-WW1 (kick the Russian navy's butt), and then in WW2 and finally after WW2.

It's absolutely cultural IMO. Once Europeans stopped blindly following their elders/royalty/religious dogma and embraced rationalism and the scientific method they leap-frogged over Asia. Every once in a while inventions were shown to the Chinese emperors but they scoffed at them as they saw Europeans as barbarians. Their culture keeps their societies stable, but on the other hand doesn't leave as much room for innovation and enabled Westerners to blitz past them. "Us-and-them" mentality isn't always a good thing.

Japan has been very, very successful. Especially successful. I agree it's not the only factor.

On the other hand their nationalism and xenophobia is the reason they can be great countries but never super sucessful IMO. Look the US, they suck in some of the best immigrants from all over the world and profit greatly from it. Elon Musk, Sergey Brin, Einstein, Linus Torvalds, Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar, Wernher von Braun etc. all contributed greatly to making the US the technological and scientific powerhouse it is today. East Asian countries will never hit that kind of critical mass because they exclude other people, whereas the US draws brilliant people from all over the world.

Japan is stagnating because they've pretty much gone as far as they can go with their current population and the state of technology these days. South Korea will probably hit a similar wall soon enough. China can still progress because of the number of people they have.

 

[Hoekachaka]

...In the West people now feel shame about their heritage...

You write a lot. Some things make sense and some not. I for one do not buy the above statement. I found Europeans to be very proud of their achievements and who they are. Even Germans are proud of themselves. Google: "Ich bin stoltz ein Deutscher zu sein". The only people not to proud of who they are, are we Africans. In South African it is not unusual to change your (sir) name to some western sounding crap. Why? We are busy throwing our culture down the drain.

 

[Space_Chief]

You write a lot. Some things make sense and some not. I for one do not buy the above statement. I found Europeans to be very proud of their achievements and who they are. Even Germans are proud of themselves. Google: "Ich bin stoltz ein Deutscher zu sein". The only people not to proud of who they are, are we Africans. In South African it is not unusual to change your (sir) name to some western sounding crap. Why? We are busy throwing our culture down the drain.

Well that's more so for Anglophones. You see apologies for colonialism, slavery, treatment of native populations, heavy handedness in WW2, the presence of only whites in early cinema, Mark Twain using the N word, etc etc.... You don't really see Asians cry over wars they fought in the past or how their cultures may have impinged on previous cultures/civilizations etc. You hear about the evil of the Conquistadors but sure as heck many of the Indian tribes they fought were significantly more bloodthirsty while other Indian tribes preferred the Spanish to their fellow South Americans, while war was frequent in South America (before European arrival) with the taking of slaves for mass sacrifice and so on.

 

[Space_Chief]

I'm obviously speaking very generally here. Obviously not everyone but I'd wager the average Japanese kid is more educated than the average SA kid by quite some margin.

I speak in general terms too. You spoke of people going to cram schools but those people specifically go there to get into very good programs or universities. It's not people who want to become librarians, mechanics, pachinko parlor operators, hostesses etc.

It's absolutely cultural IMO. Once Europeans stopped blindly following their elders/royalty/religious dogma and embraced rationalism and the scientific method they leap-frogged over Asia.

Ummm I don't buy the false dichotomy between religion in Europe and science. It wasn't like that. Secondly colonialism was not driven by scientific feats but by engineering ones. Rationalism emerged because of Christianity and ancient Greek philosophy which was maintained only by the church. Without Christianity there would have been no "rationalism" later. And pre-enlightment science did also exist in Europe too as did the Renaissance, trade and imperial conquest.

Every once in a while inventions were shown to the Chinese emperors but they scoffed at them as they saw Europeans as barbarians. Their culture keeps their societies stable, but on the other hand doesn't leave as much room for innovation and enabled Westerners to blitz past them. "Us-and-them" mentality isn't always a good thing.

It was more of the world is not intelligible and is the domain of the gods and so on. They had a different approach, similar to the pagans before Christianity united Europe. This different approach was common everywhere except in Christian Europe. Isaac Barrow,Newton's predecessor in the Lucasian Chair of Mathematics at Cambridge, suggested that the only reason for having confidence that repeated experiments will yield general principles that hold true is because we can be assured that the laws of nature that God has instituted are constant. We have no reason to believe he wrote, "that Nature is inconstant," for that would imply that "the great Author of the universe is unlike himself." People look now from the 21st century with 20/20 hindsight but fail to understand how pagan Europe would have been able to do anything without knowledge of reading, writing, mathematics and presence of universities. Who else had universities on a wide scale? Never mind that probably without people like Charlemagne and Sobieski Europe would have been an Islamic province on at least two occasions.

On the other hand their nationalism and xenophobia is the reason they can be great countries but never super sucessful IMO.

I dunno. Japan reached Number 2 Economy, despite the much smaller land mass, population, more precarious position. If they had the whole of the USA, they'd probably do better. In USA East Asians score higher in SATS and IQ tests than Whites. In addition remember the USA's heyday seems to have passed - despite taking more and more immigrants.

Look the US, they suck in some of the best immigrants from all over the world and profit greatly from it. Elon Musk, Sergey Brin, Einstein, Linus Torvalds, Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar, Wernher von Braun etc. all contributed greatly to making the US the technological and scientific powerhouse it is today. East Asian countries will never hit that kind of critical mass because they exclude other people, whereas the US draws brilliant people from all over the world.

To some degree that's true but that's pretty selective. They took highly talented immigrants but they also have huge problems with immigrant communities which are doing menial work (or no work at all) and living in ghettos, high crime, lack of prospects, cultural differences and so on. USA may splinter as many people identify more with their countries of origin than with the America of Washington and Jefferson, and various ethnic/political groups vie for control. Greater polarization of the population is not a good thing either.

Japan is stagnating because they've pretty much gone as far as they can go with their current population and the state of technology these days. South Korea will probably hit a similar wall soon enough. China can still progress because of the number of people they have.

Japan has reached Western lack of children. That's killing them. But they will reach some point and recover. Their workers are also expensive. They outsourced much of their manufacturing to Asia and that's also a problem. With more old people more is needed to maintain them with fewer youngsters to work. So they need to breed basically. Japanese need to ban all that porn manga and anime to get those herbivore men to take up their duty again for their country.

 

[Hamish McPanji]

get those herbivore men to take up their duty again for their country.

/volunteers

 

[Space_Chief]

You write a lot. Some things make sense and some not. .

I try not to write ideologically.

 

[Space_Chief]

/volunteers

Problem is that ethnicity is a big issue in Japan. They're still very much pro local dominant race, as is most if not all of non-Western world.

 

[Swa]

Japanese need to ban all that porn manga and anime to get those herbivore men to take up their duty again for their country.

Hmm... I think it's the opposite. They've gone stale and cold blooded. Need to stop blurring out the pussies and become real men.

 

[Space_Chief]

Hmm... I think it's the opposite. They've gone stale and cold blooded. Need to stop blurring out the pussies and become real men.

Nah it's women wanting to have careers even abstaining from sex (or never having) and men just not bothering. Why bother when you can have a waifu or go to a soapland?

 

[Knyro]

If I keep on quoting all of that my post will be too long. I think we're talking past each other but I think the lesson here is it probably isn't a good idea to swing two far one way or the other.

Even though Japan made it to number 2 in terms of GDP there was still a very large gap between the two. Even now US nominal GDP is over three times the size of Japan's. Germany isn't too far behind Japan either even though they only have ~60% the population of Japan and a smaller country.

Whether they would have been even more successful if they had land mass like the US? Probably. But as successful as the actual US? I don't know. I think living on top of each other and having few resources forced them to an extent to be as productive as they are.

On immigration I agree the US takes in let's say not so desirable immigrants to but I'm a supporter of letting in productive, upstanding, law-abiding people. On engineering, engineering and science go hand in hand. You could have engineering to some extent without science but you'd eventually hit a wall, especially when it comes to non-intuitive stuff where you have to take things like relativity and quantum mechanics into account. Lots of inventions also came from scientists and engineers found practical uses for them.

Japan has reached Western lack of children. That's killing them. But they will reach some point and recover. Their workers are also expensive. They outsourced much of their manufacturing to Asia and that's also a problem. With more old people more is needed to maintain them with fewer youngsters to work. So they need to breed basically. Japanese need to ban all that porn manga and anime to get those herbivore men to take up their duty again for their country.

Even if they didn't have such a low birth rate they'd hit a wall eventually. If you're only using brilliant/productive people who happened to be born in your country, whereas I'm importing such people from all over the world, including your country, I'll have more of them than you do. But as you said keeping the population from splintering is also important.

In addition remember the USA's heyday seems to have passed - despite taking more and more immigrants.

They're still way ahead and pressing forward in absolute terms. Just the sheer amount of global businesses/technology that have significantly altered the world's way of life in the past 20 years is astounding, and all just from one country. You can get far being the world's factory floor but eventually you'll have to switch to innovation to be super successful. The US wins hands down in this regard. Even from a military perspective they're extremely powerful.

 

[Space_Chief]

Even though Japan made it to number 2 in terms of GDP there was still a very large gap between the two. Even now US nominal GDP is over three times the size of Japan's. Germany isn't too far behind Japan either even though they only have ~60% the population of Japan and a smaller country.

True. Germany however has the benefit of the European market so close by. And Germany, like Japan, a largely homogenous country also shows how homogeneity can lead to overall success.

Whether they would have been even more successful if they had land mass like the US? Probably. But as successful as the actual US? I don't know. I think living on top of each other and having few resources forced them to an extent to be as productive as they are. They could have ended up complacent as China once was.

Japanese who emigrate to the US tend to be successful too. They also have a remarkably low rate of crime at home and in the US. And other East Asians tend to also do very well in USA, but look at the work ethic piled on by East Asian mothers to their children. East Asians are actually currently disadvantaged when it comes to race quotas in Ivy League universities in the US.

On immigration I agree the US takes in let's say not so desirable immigrants to but I'm a supporter of letting in productive, upstanding, law-abiding people. On engineering, engineering and science go hand in hand. You could have engineering to some extent without science but you'd eventually hit a wall, especially when it comes to non-intuitive stuff where you have to take things like relativity and quantum mechanics into account. Lots of inventions also came from scientists and engineers found practical uses for them.

You can probably get very far without understanding how stuff works on a fundamental level. You can build GPS satellites without knowing about the theory of relativity for example. But that's moot anyway because scientific inquiry flourished in Europe and nowhere else.

Even if they didn't have such a low birth rate they'd hit a wall eventually. If you're only using brilliant/productive people who happened to be born in your country, whereas I'm importing such people from all over the world, including your country, I'll have more of them than you do. But as you said keeping the population from splintering is also important.

I dunno, as said average IQ in East Asian nations is very high already, a few points higher than everywhere else. And they already import knowledge and send their people abroad for knowledge exchange. You know like for example how they sent people to Prussia to borrow from the Prussian school system. Hence those sailor uniforms in Japanese high schools. Of course having money to buy experienced and bright people can work, but look at how Germany and Japan were able to keep up with the USA in technology and science despite having less diversity.

They're still way ahead and pressing forward in absolute terms. Just the sheer amount of global businesses/technology that have significantly altered the world's way of life in the past 20 years is astounding, and all just from one country. You can get far being the world's factory floor but eventually you'll have to switch to innovation to be super successful. The US wins hands down in this regard. Even from a military perspective they're extremely powerful.

True. But there are other reasons for it too. Note that the US was the only dominant country not destroyed by WW2. They're geopolitically secure, as evidenced by the two oceans and the north pole to the north keeping enemies away. As said, Japan is pretty limited and in demographic decline but if they were in the US, chances are better than not, that they'd outperform even the largely Anglo-saxon USA.

USA also spends a ton on arms expenditure. This also pays off giving the US the edge in being able to be the world's reserve currency and be able to buy stuff on credit while also being able to pressure foreigners to benefit their own businesses. There are definitely benefits to this. Even the NSA is able to tap more networks and most likely some of that info goes to US businesses. The military allows the US to have powerful allies like Japan and Germany who depend on USA for defense and so need to do trade and knowledge exchange with the US. US gets to benefit here.

Of course you're also right that the less fettered capitalism of the US and the pioneer/frontier man culture/ethos and less red tape benefits them too. The dominance of the English language also gives America an edge and its close ties with the UK also add up.

 

[Swa]

We let in practically everybody so why are we not ahead of the world then? Because nobody wants to stay here let alone come here. I think something most people missed is that these countries have an environment that fosters investment in the future. They take care of their citizens. Ours is set up so that everyone wants to invest in themselves somewhere else.

 

[Space_Chief]

We let in practically everybody so why are we not ahead of the world then? Because nobody wants to stay here let alone come here. I think something most people missed is that these countries have an environment that fosters investment in the future. They take care of their citizens. Ours is set up so that everyone wants to invest in themselves somewhere else.

Yanks are also letting in more and more people. I think in the long term this will cause problems for integration and unity. It's one thing to dilute your dominant culture with small numbers, it's another to overload it with larger groups of divergent cultures many of whom do not assimilate. Social unity and cohesion may suffer. Or maybe it won't. I can't predict the future but homogeneity does have benefits when it comes to national cohesion and stability, especially when things go sour, and identity politics play a lesser role. But every country has problems.

 

[Hamish McPanji]

A great way of getting rates and viewing rate trends:

1. Go to www.google.com/finance
2. Type in the search field the symbols of the two currencies you want to compare. So for example usdollar to rand would be usdzar . I commonly use eurusd , gbpusd, eurzar, gbpzar, etc
3. Click the "get quotes" button or press enter.

You will get a pretty graph made for you

 

[Knyro]

All good points Space_Chief. But did you know the most educated immigrant community in the US are Nigerians? You can have a successful country by cherry picking from others too. There is probably some optimal point of immigrants and natives somewhere. Germany isn't that homogeneous either, they've got immigrants from all over Europe and Turkey.

You can build GPS satellites without knowing about the theory of relativity for example.

Actually no you can't.

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

The US military gives it a financial edge no doubt but it also saves SK and Japan money. They can focus more on development instead of worrying about defending themselves from North Korea and China.

 

[Space_Chief]

All good points Space_Chief. But did you know the most educated immigrant community in the US are Nigerians? You can have a successful country by cherry picking from others too. There is probably some optimal point of immigrants and natives somewhere. Germany isn't that homogeneous either, they've got immigrants from all over Europe and Turkey.

Yes but most Turks are not well integrated. Germany is very homogenous compared to the US.

Actually no you can't.

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

Hmmm are you sure? Yes I know they had the knowledge of relativity when building these but they would probably have compensated for these effects without knowing the fundamental reasons why they are so. Don't you think? It would have been far more difficult for sure but not impossible. The differences in clocks would have been noted, correlated with position and compensated for, with greater and greater accuracy.

The US military gives it a financial edge no doubt but it also saves SK and Japan money. They can focus more on development instead of worrying about defending themselves from North Korea and China.

Strangely enough, Japan pays about 75% of the cost of the stationing costs of the US bases in Japan. Takafumi Ohtomo argues that the cost of at least some of these bases is quite low for several reasons, one of those being host nation payments as well as hand me downs from former allies and foes.