Three ( more ) die at initiation schools

[daveza]

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2011/12/02/three-die-at-initiation-schools

Two boys and a man have died at initiation schools in the Eastern Cape and the North West this week.

A boy died on Thursday in Matatiele, in the southern Drakensberg, said the Eastern Cape traditional affairs department.

Another boy died in Bizana, in the Wild Coast region of the Eastern Cape, on Wednesday.

Mamnkeli Ngam, department spokesman, said he could not divulge any details of what happened because the department was waiting for the results of post mortems.

A 21-year-old man died at an initiation school on a farm in Rietkruil, Leeudoringstad, on Monday, North West police said.

Police found the man, who went to the school to be circumcised, with white foam coming out of his mouth, said Brigadier Thulani Ngubane.

Paramedics were called and the man was declared dead on the scene.

"It is alleged that the process of circumcision was already done to the initiates at the time of the man's death," said Ngubane.

On Wednesday, an initiation school was closed down in Letlhogoring in Mafikeng.

Fifty-six initiates sustained serious injuries when they were circumcised, said Ngubane.

It was alleged that the initiates were abducted and taken to the initiation school without their parents' consent.

All the boys were taken to the local hospital for treatment and observation.

The school instructor was arrested and fined R1 500 for circumcising children under the age of 16 without consent.

He would appear in the Mafikeng Magistrate's Court on Monday on charges of kidnapping.

Isn't it time this medieval practise was outlawed !

Every year young men die and no one is ever held accountable.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Go, Kulcha, Go!

 

[TJ99]

"It is alleged that the process of circumcision was already done to the initiates at the time of the man's death," said Ngubane.

It is alleged? They couldn't see??

 

[chrisc]

They need one of these UK Muslim medical students to show them the error of their ways, you know, the ones who deny evolution

 

[Lycanthrope]

Isn't it time this medieval practise was outlawed !

Every year young men die and no one is ever held accountable.

Don't be ridiculous. The very idea of abolishing such a barbaric practice is an attack on African culture. Such a notion would never be supported, least of all when it originates from the mouth of a white person, however desperately that person might want to rid people of perpetuating superstition, harmful practices and savagery.

But hey, some people need some physical evidence to prove their manhood and the fact that peer pressure, the risk of being ostracised by your family and the desperate need for some kind of identity are all significant forces that drive people to doing stupid things, doesn't help.

But you'll never get people from those societies to understand that without PROPER EDUCATION.

 

[Knyro]

Don't be ridiculous. The very idea of abolishing such a barbaric practice is an attack on African culture. Such a notion would never be supported, least of all when it originates from the mouth of a white person, however desperately that person might want to rid people of perpetuating superstition, harmful practices and savagery.

+1

Go, Kulcha, Go!

This is why. The voices of people who genuinely want to see progress are drowned out by statements like this, which is why black people don't listen to white people's views on the progress of African cultures.

 

[Nicodeamus]

+1

This is why. The voices of people who genuinely want to see progress are drowned out by statements like this, which is why black people don't listen to white people's views on the progress of African cultures.

So that makes it ok for them to deliberately be ignorant because a whitey might say it is bad 'kultha'?

 

[Knyro]

So that makes it ok for them to deliberately be ignorant because a whitey might say it is bad 'kultha'?

No it does not make it okay. However everyone knows that someone is more likely to cooperate with you if you convince them to do something instead of forcing and insulting them until you get what you want. If you go in with and attitude like that the person will put up a wall and not listen to you because they're not being treated with respect.

As long as white people come with this "hey Koos ha ha look savage backward kulcha, stupid blacks ahahahaha" attitude most black people will not listen to whatever those "racist whites" have to say regardless if it is good advice or not. They'll keep doing what they're doing just to stick it to the racist white man.

 

[Lycanthrope]

This is why. The voices of people who genuinely want to see progress are drowned out by statements like this, which is why black people don't listen to white people's views on the progress of African cultures.

That's precisely my problem: ignorant people allow racism to cloud their judgement; they'd rather cut off their noses to spite their face.

However, many people are kept ignorant and aren't given the opportunity to change their perception because it works to the advantage of those in power. Then again, those in power are hardly free of ignorance either. Education is such a simple tool to eradicate so much misfortune, stupidity and problems in life, and yet it is something that is repeatedly overlooked and considered less vital than two aeroplanes, submarines and other useless junk.

Meh... It's just one of those things that grates my tits.

 

[Nicodeamus]

No it does not make it okay. Everyone knows that someone is more likely to cooperate with you if you convince them to do something instead of forcing and insulting them until you get what you want. If you go in with and attitude like that the person will put up a wall and not listen to you because they're not being treated with respect.

As long as white people come with this "hey Koos ha ha look savage backward kulcha, stupid blacks ahahahaha" black people will not to whatever those "racist whites" have to say regardless if it is good advice or not.

At the end of the day though, it isn't exactly the white that is losing. So maybe some people should swallow a bit of pride.

 

[Knyro]

At the end of the day though, it isn't exactly the white that is losing. So maybe some people should swallow a bit of pride.

Seriously? Living in a country with so much ignorance doesn't affect white people at all? Ignorance is the reason we have so much crap in this country, this affects you too however indirectly. Mudslinging doesn't do anybody any good. No one will listen to someone that disrespects them. At the end of the day education and not insults will drive progress. Lycanthrope's last post sums it up nicely.

 

[Nicodeamus]

Seriously? Living in a country with so much ignorance doesn't affect white people at all? Ignorance is the reason we have so much crap in this country, this affects you too however indirectly. Mudslinging doesn't do anybody any good. No one will listen to someone that disrespects them. At the end of the day education and not insults will drive progress. Lycanthrope's last post sums it up nicely.

How does a initiation ceremony gone wrong affect me in any way? Quite frankly if some idiot wants to cut of his penis with a blunt knife in the middle of the Transkei then I am not really going to care - however I am going to laugh.

 

[Lycanthrope]

How does a initiation ceremony gone wrong affect me in any way?

The avoidable loss of any human life is something that should affect us all. It shows something wrong with our society.

 

[Nicodeamus]

The avoidable loss of any human life is something that should affect us all. It shows something wrong with our society.

To be honest, I don't really see the world in that way. If they want to practice a culture that is backwards then let them choose to do so.
We cannot legislate against alcohol abuse, or drug abuse, or people killing each other with pencils. Why should we legislate against cultures?

 

[Shibal]

Mandela on forced child marriages - do not even try to bring in white notions

Maybe the whites are tired of this type of racism propagated from the upper ranks of the ANC.


Mandela asked to clarify comments on forced teenage marriages

ANC NP Mandla Mandela has been asked to clearly state in the National Assembly that the age of consent for sexual intercourse is 16, three gender rights organisations said on Thursday.

This came after Mandela made comments in July last year regarding the practice of Ukuthwala, the Tshwaranang Legal Advocacy Centre, the Commission for Gender Equality and the Rural Women's Movement said in a statement.

Ukuthwala is a practice where women, some as a young as 14-years-old(girls, not women), are abducted and forcefully married to older men.

Mandela is a grandson of former president Nelson Mandela.

According to the organisations, Mandela said the process of Ukuthwala had nothing to do with age and depended on whether the girl underwent the intonjane initiation, as arranged by her family.

"That is how culture works," he was quoted as saying at a rural development and land reform Parliamentary portfolio committee meeting.

"When you are going to discuss culture do not even try to bring in white notions as such an approach will turn things upside down," he said.

"Firstly, culture has no age. Age is something we learnt today because of our westernisation(civilization ?)."

The three organisations met with Mandela on Thursday to discuss his comments.

Mandela was also asked to acknowledge section 3(1) of the Recognition of Customary Marriages Act which states that all prospective spouses must be over the age of 18 to enter into a customary marriage, the organisations said.

"On this basis the organisations asked honourable Mandela to also publicly condemn the abduction, kidnapping, assault and rape that currently accompany ukuthwala.

"These are all criminal offences that mitigate consent and are not in accordance with customary negotiations around marriage," they said.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

+1



This is why. The voices of people who genuinely want to see progress are drowned out by statements like this, which is why black people don't listen to white people's views on the progress of African cultures.

Whole lot of assumption and brush-painting going on there, bro.

 

[Knyro]

How does a initiation ceremony gone wrong affect me in any way? Quite frankly if some idiot wants to cut of his penis with a blunt knife in the middle of the Transkei then I am not really going to care - however I am going to laugh.

Way to miss the point and simultaneously prove my other point about the bad attitude. The initiation ceremony is a symptom, not the cause. For example if more people knew about infection, antibiotics, the importance of sterilisation etc. they are less likely to send their kids to these things. I know several educated Xhosa families who never dream of it. Just like disease and savagery in Europe decreased with the rise of education the same can happen here.

Just remember that uneducated ignoramus who would consent to such things is the same guy who will rob you and hijack your wife. He could have seen the error of his ways and how much more profitable and better his life would be if he became a CA instead but alas he's ignorant so he sees crime as a suitable option. While he's at it he may as well teach that whitey who laughs at his culture a lesson as well.

Never underestimate the snowball effects of ignorance.

 

[Lycanthrope]

To be honest, I don't really see the world in that way. If they want to practice a culture that is backwards then let them choose to do so.
We cannot legislate against alcohol abuse, or drug abuse, or people killing each other with pencils. Why should we legislate against cultures?

Of course we can. Legislation exists to protect us from OTHER people: drunk drivers, the illegal sale of banned substances (especially so to minors) and murder is an obvious one.

The problem isn't so much with culture as it is with cultural practices, specifically dangerous ones performed on minors and people who have been psychologically groomed to believe that it's "necessary." That alone sparks huge red warning signs that something is dreadfully wrong with the practice.

Look, I firmly believe every adult should be free to make their own decisions in life, live as they see fit and make their own mistakes. However, I don't believe anyone in their right mind would undergo something like these "initiations" without being brainwashed or forced into it by family members for fear of being disowned. That is nothing short of abuse.

And don't get me wrong; I know what kind of whacked out **** people do to themselves for the sake of "aesthetics." And if that makes them happy then go for it. But they've made a knowledgeable, adult decision to do that.

I don't believe that the same is true for these guys.

Meh... It's just something that I think is sad. You have one life and you allow it to be risked and mutilated for social standing and acceptance? Tragic.

 

[Knyro]

Whole lot of assumption and brush-painting going on there, bro.

Must be. Maybe the fact that I've heard many people say it has nothing to do with it. Or the fact that I've heard even more people say that they'd rather keep voting for the ANC no matter how corrupt because rather them than the "racist" white man.

There's no defending your ignorant comment, don't even try.

 

[Nicodeamus]

Of course we can. Legislation exists to protect us from OTHER people: drunk drivers, the illegal sale of banned substances (especially so to minors) and murder is an obvious one.

just because it is illegal doesn't mean people wont do it. In many countries around the world it is illegal to have gay marriages, use weed, be a atheist or whatever and guess what people still do it! If you ban these practices just more people will do it illegally, which will be a greater problem.

The problem isn't so much with culture as it is with cultural practices, specifically dangerous ones performed on minors and people who have been psychologically groomed to believe that it's "necessary." That alone sparks huge red warning signs that something is dreadfully wrong with the practice.

the practise is usually a symptom of the culture. People don't just do these things because it is fun, they do it because the assigned a artificial and totally rational self-accepting meaning towards it.

Look, I firmly believe every adult should be free to make their own decisions in life, live as they see fit and make their own mistakes. However, I don't believe anyone in their right mind would undergo something like these "initiations" without being brainwashed or forced into it by family members for fear of being disowned. That is nothing short of abuse.

And don't get me wrong; I know what kind of whacked out **** people do to themselves for the sake of "aesthetics." And if that makes them happy then go for it. But they've made a knowledgeable, adult decision to do that.

the thing is education doesn't always solve any of this.

I don't believe that the same is true for these guys.

Meh... It's just something that I think is sad. You have one life and you allow it to be risked and mutilated for social standing and acceptance? Tragic.

I also find it sad, but I also find heroin addicts sad and religious fanatics. However there is absolutely nothing I can do about it, apart from laughing at them at the end of the day debate is not really a good method of persuasion for anything related with related with religion of culture. I'm seriously not going to be the guy dedicating my life towards understanding and persuading backwards practices. It really doesn't bother or affect me in any way.