Traffic fine - advice needed.

[Spizz]

I've just been hit with a R2000 fine for jumping a red light

Apart from the massive amount, the problem is, I reckon there is just not enough time to stop according to the speed limit (80km/h) and the time the light is at amber (1.5 seconds). And according to this table, it seems like I have a case as the time needed to stop is 5.3 seconds.


http://www.abs-bv.nl/en/home/467-double-the-speed-four-times-the-braking-distance

Even if you slow down to about 60 km/h anticipating a change, as I usually do, you are still screwed (4.2 seconds).

Now I don't mind paying the fine if you do the crime, but this seems to me to be a bit off and apparently a lot of people are getting caught by this at this intersection which is a major crossroads into town and dual carriageways approaching from 4 sides.

Any advice on how to approach this? Should I send a letter to traffic dept, request a court date or what???

 

[Necropolis]

Or you could just ignore the fine

 

[Cray]

I've just been hit with a R2000 fine for jumping a red light

Apart from the massive amount, the problem is, I reckon there is just not enough time to stop according to the speed limit (80km/h) and the time the light is at amber (1.5 seconds). And according to this table, it seems like I have a case as the time needed to stop is 5.3 seconds.

View attachment 217432
http://www.abs-bv.nl/en/home/467-double-the-speed-four-times-the-braking-distance

Even if you slow down to about 60 km/h anticipating a change, as I usually do, you are still screwed (4.2 seconds).

Now I don't mind paying the fine if you do the crime, but this seems to me to be a bit off and apparently a lot of people are getting caught by this at this intersection which is a major crossroads into town and dual carriageways approaching from 4 sides.

Any advice on how to approach this? Should I send a letter to traffic dept, request a court date or what???

I was always told you should slow down sufficiently when approaching an intersection with Traffic lights. A friend of mine failed his learners because he went through a red light due to being unable to stop and this is what the cop told him.

 

[quovadis]

It's a speed limit and not a speed recommendation. Slow down when approaching an intersection. Pay the fine or risk the whole road block fine saga.

 

[Sinbad]

Those times are bollocks.
I stopped from 60km/h in 2.7 seconds, including reaction time.

 

[bwana]

Apart from the massive amount, the problem is, I reckon there is just not enough time to stop according to the speed limit (80km/h) and the time the light is at amber (1.5 seconds). And according to this table, it seems like I have a case as the time needed to stop is 5.3 seconds.

That amber period seems awfully short to me.

 

[Sinbad]

That amber period seems awfully short to me.

That is also true. Should be 5 seconds at least. Does the photo/record of the fine include the timings of the signals?

 

[Spizz]

I get the point you guys are making, and believe it or not, I always do slow down at intersections, especially this one. But it seems that with such a short time with the light on amber, you're always going to lose no matter how slow you go.

I just feel like I want to say something about it, even if I do end paying the fine.

 

[MickZA]

Be interesting to know if the time period is legislated in SA. It seems it is in some US states with 3secs being the minimum:

At those locations, Savage clocked the yellow signal time at less than 3 seconds, in violation of both state law and federal regulations. A local newspaper, The Nashville Scene, then confirmed his findings.

more here - http://blog.motorists.org/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/

... I believe Australia has similar legislation.

 

[bwana]

I get the point you guys are making, and believe it or not, I always do slow down at intersections, especially this one. But it seems that with such a short time with the light on amber, you're always going to lose no matter how slow you go.

I just feel like I want to say something about it, even if I do end paying the fine.

Then fight it - there should be a court date on the notice. Could be load shedding has messed up the timing system.

 

[Beachless]

Be interesting to know if the time period is legislated in SA. It seems it is in some US states with 3secs being the minimum:



more here - http://blog.motorists.org/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/

... I believe Australia has similar legislation.

+1 would be nice if someone could look through the road traffic act to see if they can find something.

I agree that 1.5 seconds is nowhere near enough time to safely bring a vehicle to a stop.

 

[Spizz]

Then fight it - there should be a court date on the notice. Could be load shedding has messed up the timing system.

There's no court date. The offence took place on the 3rd December and the fine had to be paid on the 2nd February. I got the notice yesterday in the post :wtf:

The notice only gives the location and says the vehicle was travelling at 62km/h in an 80 zone.

I'm going to go and time the light later today because that 1.5 seconds was a count done at Christmas time when my wife and I actually noticed the light was changing so fast that it seemed abnormal. We didn't know we had a fine back then though so it shows you something was up.

 

[Sinbad]

There's no court date. The offence took place on the 3rd December and the fine had to be paid on the 2nd February. I got the notice yesterday in the post :wtf:

The notice only gives the location and says the vehicle was travelling at 62km/h in an 80 zone.

I'm going to go and time the light later today because that 1.5 seconds was a count done at Christmas time when my wife and I actually noticed the light was changing so fast that it seemed abnormal. We didn't know we had a fine back then though so it shows you something was up.

Is there a photo?

 

[Spizz]

Is there a photo?

Yes. It's very dark even though it was mid afternoon (14h34) The whole car is over the line with another 2 cars in front in the 'no mans land'.

 

[Sinbad]

Yes. It's very dark even though it was mid afternoon (14h34) The whole car is over the line with another 2 cars in front in the 'no mans land'.

Normally the photo has text on it showing red light time and orange light time? Can you make it out?

 

[Spizz]

Normally the photo has text on it showing red light time and orange light time? Can you make it out?

It looks like Amb1 has the numbers 3 26 under it, and Red1 has 000 31

So perhaps that's 3.26 seconds since the amber and 0.31 seconds since the red. That's mean an amber time of 2.95 seconds???

Well it was definitely shorter than that just after Christmas when I was home but even though, although it's not as drastic as I thought and if these time are correct, it still seems short for an 80 zone?

 

[Sinbad]

It looks like Amb1 has the numbers 3 26 under it, and Red1 has 000 31

So perhaps that's 3.26 seconds since the amber and 0.31 seconds since the red. That's mean an amber time of 2.95 seconds???

Well it was definitely shorter than that just after Christmas when I was home but even though, although it's not as drastic as I thought and if these time are correct, it still seems short for an 80 zone?

No, more likely an amber time of 3.26 seconds.
I'd make representations to the prosecutor based on this:
http://www.transport.gov.za/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=5Mz-1u_Izwk=&tabid=333&mid=2266

Section 6.12.2 - Yellow interval

6.12.2 Yellow interval
1 The following formula will provide a yellow period
that would be adequate for an average driver driving
through a junction under dry weather conditions:
A g G /100
V / 3,6
Yellow t ½
y
y
 
  
In which:
Ay = deceleration rate, taken as 3,7 m/s2
V = speed limit or advisory speed (km/h)
ty = reaction time, taken as 0,75 seconds
G = gradient on approach to signal(%)
g = acceleration due to gravity (9,8 m/s2
)
2 The above formula will allow a driver travelling at the
speed limit, but who could not stop because he or
she requires a deceleration rate greater than
3,7 m/s2
, to continue travelling at the speed limit and
reach the stop line just as the yellow interval
terminates.
3 The use of very short yellow intervals could lead to
dangerous driving conditions. The interval calculated
by means of the above formula must therefore be
subject to the following minimum values:
Speed limit or
Advisory speed
Minimum yellow
(seconds)
60 km/h or less 3,0
70 km/h 3,5
80 km/h 4,0
4 The yellow interval calculated by means of the
above formula is NOT adequate for wet weather
conditions or for drivers requiring a longer reaction
time. To accommodate such drivers and weather
conditions, a longer all-red period is provided which
can effectively be used as an extension of the yellow
period.
5 Practical values for the yellow interval calculated by
means of the above formula, and taking the
minimum values into account, are given in Table 6.1.
The values given in the table will cover the range of
conditions that occur most often in practice. Where
different movements or approaches require different
yellow intervals due to different approach speeds
and gradients, the longest interval should be used.


That doc also has a table of recommendations based on road gradient etc.

 

[Sinbad]

Interestingly, the DoT also only recommends enforcing the law during the last second of the "all red" interval - which means unless the all-red interval is less than 1.3 seconds they are also not adhering to that recommendation.

6.12.1 (5): The reduced yellow period may result in drivers
entering a junction during the all-red period being
prosecuted unfairly. It is therefore recommended
that an enforcement tolerance should be provided
and that law enforcement should only commence
during the last one second of the all-red interval.

 

[Spizz]

Great stuff Sinbad. Got a sick kid off school here and not getting the time at the mo to look at this.

But that's 2 points not met in the recommendations.

4 seconds at amber = 3.26
1.3 seconds at full red = 0.31

 

[MickZA]

That doc also has a table of recommendations based on road gradient etc.

Thanks Sinbad, certainly interesting reading. As these times seem to be recommendations I wonder what the chances of success would be in getting a short timing robot fine cancelled by the Public Prosecutor on the basis of this document?