Two years living abroad

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StellenboschStudent

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Following from a couple of my earlier threads:
One
Two
Three
Four
Five

It has been 2 years since I left South Africa. Stayed in Paris for a year (only had a 1 year contract) - the aim was to apply for work in Europe within this year. Luckily I was successful. Moved to Newcastle, UK, about 1 year ago.

I haven't been back to SA in the 2 years (I would like to go back, but cannot find the time or money!), but I do miss certain things about home... However, I am now committing to a 25 year mortgage, so I won't be returning home anytime soon.

Converted salary (GBP - ZAR), is roughly the same as I made in SA (depending on what Zuma did and the strength or weakness of the Rand), I have waaaaayyyy more disposable income. After tax and a view bills (rent, electricity, etc.), I have more money to spend on travel, nights out with the Geordies... Which is great!

I feel the councils and communities do a lot more for you... basically every weekend there will be some activity, mostly free, to partake in (or just to watch). Is rare that a weekend goes by where you cannot find something interesting or new to do (I am sure if you search, the same applies for SA).

Of course, all the other general things, like safety and blah blah blah...

But, I do miss SA. It will always be my home. Yes, things are rough and tough, but that is part of the 'charm'. The Europeans have things way to easy :)

But in all seriousness, if you are thinking about leaving, or even if you are not, do it! It is a great adventure (not always easy), there are so many things and places to explore. It is a whole new way of living.
 
The extra disposable income is definitely nice. There are loads of things to do in SA, but between a lack of disposable income and some safety concerns for some activities, I always found it much harder to do those things.

I feel the same way about SA being home though. There is a connection and love that you have for the place where you grow up. I will never stop missing SA, but that also makes me that much more angry when I think of just why I felt I had to leave.

Whenever I think of SA and my friends still there, I liken it to living in an amazing home, with a loving mother and many many great siblings. You all get along and have a fantastic time living together, but sometimes Dad comes home from a long business trip and starts laying into everyone one by one, and we are all powerless to stop him for some magical reason, try as we might. So the choice is to stay inside that abusive home that you love, and subject your new kids to that; or leave to another house, that isn't quite a home; but at least Dad can't do to your children what he did to you and still does to your siblings that haven't managed to leave yet.
 
Slootvreter said:
Rough and tough, as in how?
Click to expand...

In my 28 years of living in SA, I was the victim of crime at least 5 times (nothing too serious). From all the people I met here, no-one has been a victim of crime (just a bit of verbal abuse).
I regularly walk home after a night out, through a dark and abandoned park - you cannot do that in SA... I was almost mugged in Long Street in Cape Town after a night out, in a busy street...
Daily life in SA isn't as 'easy-going' as it is in Europe (at least my experience).
 
StellenboschStudent said:
But, I do miss SA. It will always be my home. Yes, things are rough and tough, but that is part of the 'charm'. The Europeans have things way to easy :)
Click to expand...

Each to their own but I have never understood this (you are not the first person I've seen say this).

Why must life be tough? The ''roughness'' and ''toughness'' of living in SA literally kills people at an alarming rate or unnecessarily complicates your life, often at great cost (dealing with government departments and bungled municipal bills, for example) which isn't at all charming.

I get the impression that some folks pride themselves on the scaring living in SA gives/has given them.
 
thestaggy said:
Each to their own but I have never understood this (you are not the first person I've seen say this).

Why must life be tough? The ''roughness'' and ''toughness'' of living in SA literally kills people at an alarming rate or unnecessarily complicates your life, often at great cost (dealing with government departments and bungled municipal bills, for example) which isn't at all charming.

I get the impression that some folks pride themselves on the scaring living in SA gives/has given them.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you. It shouldn't be that way. But it is how I grew up, it is what I am used to... I am sure after 5 more years of living here, my mindset might (and most likely will) change.
 
StellenboschStudent said:
In my 28 years of living in SA, I was the victim of crime at least 5 times (nothing too serious). From all the people I met here, no-one has been a victim of crime (just a bit of verbal abuse).
I regularly walk home after a night out, through a dark and abandoned park - you cannot do that in SA... I was almost mugged in Long Street in Cape Town after a night out, in a busy street...
Daily life in SA isn't as 'easy-going' as it is in Europe (at least my experience).
Click to expand...

Yeah, ridiculous. This is not charm at all, and won't be missed if it were to suddenly disappear. Europeans for the most part have it as it should be.
 
Slootvreter said:
Yeah, ridiculous. This is not charm at all, and won't be missed if it were to suddenly disappear. Europeans for the most part have it as it should be.
Click to expand...

I think, if SA can solve this problem, we can compete with most countries on a number of fronts... I worked for 1 year at a university, and, although we don't officially have a university in the top 200 (even 500 I think), we can compete. We are a lot more innovative and creative in solving problems. They just throw money at a problem and hope to solve it, where in SA we have to be creative, since we don't have the cash to burn.
Also, in terms of outdoor activities and nature, SA has so much more to contribute and share. This morning on the radio, people went crazy because it is 17°C already (8 am in the UK)...
I also think our work ethic is a lot better than any of the EU countries.

backstreetboy said:
*If you can find a job that is or have a degree...
Click to expand...

Granted, both my jobs required a PhD. But, on the flip side, I know of someone working in a coffee shop (not sure how he managed that). It is tough, and getting ever harder to find work for foreigners.
 
StellenboschStudent said:
Granted, both my jobs required a PhD. But, on the flip side, I know of someone working in a coffee shop (not sure how he managed that). It is tough, and getting ever harder to find work for foreigners.
Click to expand...

With the ever-increasing requirements for foreigners to obtain residency, including minimum salaries, these unskilled jobs are falling off of options. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view.
I did a gap year in the UK after school, worked minimum wage and got to experience the country. Pity that it seems as if that's dying out.
 
I read through (all) your posts and appreciate the time you took to share your journey with us. I am about to embark on a similar quest and it has been a roller-coaster of emotions. Excited, then terrified, overwhelmed, then excited again.

The biggest fear we have is the loss of family engagement. Yes skype will bring us closer together, but we a fairly tight knit family that is relatively small. We see everyone at least every 2 weeks. That I feel is going to be the toughest part.

The other issue, and I have brought it up before, is the food. OMG - We really eat like kings in SA for relatively peanuts. What I have learnt abroad is good food costs allot, average food not so much. This will be something we have to get used to. How did you guys cope ?
 
I think perhaps OP needs to put some things in perspective as well as most believe that moving to Europe is a tremendous improvement in life-style. As someone who was born in Europe, came to SA in 1991 and then went back to work in Europe between 2000-2005 and am back in SA since 2005 I can only say:
- Although violent crime is substantially higher in SA, it does not mean that you have no crime in Europe:
-- The 2016 Munich shooting was in fact across my apartment in Munich and I would frequently walk to the Moosach mall.
-- If you are non-white, you will be exposed to more crime/hate-speech etc in Europe and will probably be treated worse than here
- Disposable income is generally higher because:
-- Food, clothing, electronics is cheap
-- Most people will not own a car as public transport is very good - the cost of filling up once will give you access to the whole metro-city network
-- Tax rates are lower and extra expenditures (security, medical aid, schooling) do not apply or are generally cheaper

I hated working and living in Munich. The first few months are exciting but when the "normal" returns you will realise that many things we are used to in SA do not exist:
- Housing is super expensive. A 40m2 apartment in the ****ty area I lived in was EUR750/pm. Buying the same would have cost EUR160K. Buying a simple house in the outskirts of a metro would easily cost EUR300K for 120m2 living room on 300-400m2 property
- Unless you work in a big metro, jobs will be scarce. Since you can not afford to live in the metro, you will probably spend a good 2 hours per day commuting
- A domestic worker / cleaner. Have fun wasting time on evenings/weekends to do the domestic chores. Yes, you can use a cleaning service but this will become inherently expensive
- Living with nosy neighbors - yes, they will get on your nerves
- Finding out "compulsory traditions" - to my dismay I learned that Stuttgart has something called "Kehrwoche" - I was not happy to learn that my rental agreement had a clause that every 6th week I had to clean staircases, sidewalks and shovel snow - have fun
- Although I never had an issue getting along with locals, an expat will always be considered a foreigner no matter how hard you try (less so in the UK and perhaps northern Europe)

TL;DR: Living abroad sounds great, but SA is still a fantastic place to be. I would not trade Europe/US for SA. For most of you only an english speaking country is an option. UK with Brexit will hit an economic disaster and the US has long not been the country of opportunity as people tend to make out. If you are an average employee and somehow manage to land a job overseas, your lifestyle will obviously dramatically improve (A Syrian refugee gets over EUR1k/pm for not working vs a janitor gets paid around EUR 1,5K/pm - more than most junior IT staff here).
 
One of the things I despise about SA apart from the crime is lack of disposable income. First world countries you enjoy your money knowing you'll be taken care of in your old age while in SA - Pension (excuse me while I fall about laughing - it's worth f-all)

Savings are eroded by inflation, international travel is no fun with our exchange rate. One thing I know is that I'll be working until the day I die, at least overseas there might be a chance of retirement.
 
VikashLurker said:
I read through (all) your posts and appreciate the time you took to share your journey with us. I am about to embark on a similar quest and it has been a roller-coaster of emotions. Excited, then terrified, overwhelmed, then excited again.

The biggest fear we have is the loss of family engagement. Yes skype will bring us closer together, but we a fairly tight knit family that is relatively small. We see everyone at least every 2 weeks. That I feel is going to be the toughest part.

The other issue, and I have brought it up before, is the food. OMG - We really eat like kings in SA for relatively peanuts. What I have learnt abroad is good food costs allot, average food not so much. This will be something we have to get used to. How did you guys cope ?
Click to expand...

Like I said, I haven't been back for 2 years. Luckily my parents have come to visit, and also a couple of friends.

Food, yes, a lot more expensive. The first couple of weeks/months we tried to continue as we did in SA, but quickly ran into cash-flow problems. First thing we did was cut back on meat. That saved us a lot. Next was just to eat smaller portions.
We are now almost vegetarian - only eat meat when dining out, or a very special occasion at home. Also started online shopping and delivery, then I don't wander around the supermarket and buy stuff I don't need...

MagicDude4Eva said:
I think perhaps OP needs to put some things in perspective as well as most believe that moving to Europe is a tremendous improvement in life-style. As someone who was born in Europe, came to SA in 1991 and then went back to work in Europe between 2000-2005 and am back in SA since 2005 I can only say:
- Although violent crime is substantially higher in SA, it does not mean that you have no crime in Europe:
-- The 2016 Munich shooting was in fact across my apartment in Munich and I would frequently walk to the Moosach mall.
-- If you are non-white, you will be exposed to more crime/hate-speech etc in Europe and will probably be treated worse than here
- Disposable income is generally higher because:
-- Food, clothing, electronics is cheap
-- Most people will not own a car as public transport is very good - the cost of filling up once will give you access to the whole metro-city network
-- Tax rates are lower and extra expenditures (security, medical aid, schooling) do not apply or are generally cheaper
Click to expand...
I agree - crime in SA is almost predictable, you know what areas to avoid. If you can, don't drive at night in less crowded areas, etc. Where crime in EU is less predictable, even more so with terrorism.
I own a car as my work is in a less populated town. Buying the car is cheap, upkeep is high. But yes, all in all, public transport is great. Plus you can walk to most places in smaller cities.
I pay roughly the same tax as I did in SA. However, I don;t pay (extra) for medical, armed response, insurance (car and home) is cheaper. Don't have kids, so save a ton there!

I hated working and living in Munich. The first few months are exciting but when the "normal" returns you will realise that many things we are used to in SA do not exist:
- Housing is super expensive. A 40m2 apartment in the ****ty area I lived in was EUR750/pm. Buying the same would have cost EUR160K. Buying a simple house in the outskirts of a metro would easily cost EUR300K for 120m2 living room on 300-400m2 property
- Unless you work in a big metro, jobs will be scarce. Since you can not afford to live in the metro, you will probably spend a good 2 hours per day commuting
- A domestic worker / cleaner. Have fun wasting time on evenings/weekends to do the domestic chores. Yes, you can use a cleaning service but this will become inherently expensive
- Living with nosy neighbors - yes, they will get on your nerves
- Finding out "compulsory traditions" - to my dismay I learned that Stuttgart has something called "Kehrwoche" - I was not happy to learn that my rental agreement had a clause that every 6th week I had to clean staircases, sidewalks and shovel snow - have fun
- Although I never had an issue getting along with locals, an expat will always be considered a foreigner no matter how hard you try (less so in the UK and perhaps northern Europe)
Click to expand...
As mentioned, buying a house now. Still have property in SA I am renting out. In SA, house is 220m2, new place is 70m2 for roughly the same price. But, I don't spend nearly as much time in my home as I did in SA.
I spend 1 hour commuting. That is similar to most places in the world, don't think SA is better or worse in that regard.
Cleaning a 70m2 home takes 2 hours on a Saturday morning... not that big a deal.
Yes, we had a phone the police the other day, because our neighbors were that loud! This is a big pain, as all the houses are build as close together as humanly possible.
Again, cleaning stairs, etc. takes a hour out of your day. Not that big of a deal.
Yes, I agree, you will never feel 'excepted' - you will never be a local.

TL;DR: Living abroad sounds great, but SA is still a fantastic place to be. I would not trade Europe/US for SA. For most of you only an english speaking country is an option. UK with Brexit will hit an economic disaster and the US has long not been the country of opportunity as people tend to make out. If you are an average employee and somehow manage to land a job overseas, your lifestyle will obviously dramatically improve (A Syrian refugee gets over EUR1k/pm for not working vs a janitor gets paid around EUR 1,5K/pm - more than most junior IT staff here).
Click to expand...

A lot of people here think we are crazy to leave Cape Town... The grass is always greener on the other side...
I will go back to SA if I can find work there, in my field... I needed to move for my career, but would move back if I could.
I disagree on Brexit, I don't think the impact will be as bad on the longer term, short term, yes.
 
MagicDude4Eva said:
-- If you are non-white, you will be exposed to more crime/hate-speech etc in Europe and will probably be treated worse than here
Click to expand...
I once asked this a long time ago and I was told it is not an issue. I think the US or UK is better. I'm not sure about Australia and New Zealand
 
maumau said:
One of the things I despise about SA apart from the crime is lack of disposable income. First world countries you enjoy your money knowing you'll be taken care of in your old age while in SA - Pension (excuse me while I fall about laughing - it's worth f-all)

Savings are eroded by inflation, international travel is no fun with our exchange rate. One thing I know is that I'll be working until the day I die, at least overseas there might be a chance of retirement.
Click to expand...

This is a myth. Every overseas state-pension scheme is collapsing and you will not be able to retire without self-contribution. If you have a pension pot of about GBP100K in the UK, that will give you about GBP6K/pa in annuity income (and it will be quite tough to survive onGBP500/pm). Their NHS (national healthcare scheme) is also consistently eroding. In Germany for example the retirement age is lifted to 66 years, the social security contribution is about 20% (this is in addition to income tax) to cater for a pension and the average pension payout is around EUR1,1 - 1,4K/pm.

If you want superior pension, then move to Denmark, but there you pay local income tax, municipal income tax, state income tax and land-value tax - this could go to a max of 51% (but then you also have 25% VAT on top of everything). Irrespective of where you are, you will face inflation due to the current economic pressures and it will get worse once Brexit happens and Trumpf really does something fantastically stupid. The EU will eventually collapse as Germany/France can not carry it alone and it is a myth that "first world countries" will look after you (especially if you are a migrant). Unless you are at least putting 15% of your net-income away every month, your future will be very unpleasant.

FWIW: Most Saffers lack the disposable income because they live well beyond their means (2 cars, expensive house, high-end electronics) and pay no consideration for savings or retirement planning. Although OP has more disposable income, he does not seem to provision this for a solid investment plan (I read "more money on travel, nights out")
 
MagicDude4Eva said:
This is a myth. Every overseas state-pension scheme is collapsing and you will not be able to retire without self-contribution. If you have a pension pot of about GBP100K in the UK, that will give you about GBP6K/pa in annuity income (and it will be quite tough to survive onGBP500/pm). Their NHS (national healthcare scheme) is also consistently eroding. In Germany for example the retirement age is lifted to 66 years, the social security contribution is about 20% (this is in addition to income tax) to cater for a pension and the average pension payout is around EUR1,1 - 1,4K/pm.

If you want superior pension, then move to Denmark, but there you pay local income tax, municipal income tax, state income tax and land-value tax - this could go to a max of 51% (but then you also have 25% VAT on top of everything). Irrespective of where you are, you will face inflation due to the current economic pressures and it will get worse once Brexit happens and Trumpf really does something fantastically stupid. The EU will eventually collapse as Germany/France can not carry it alone and it is a myth that "first world countries" will look after you (especially if you are a migrant). Unless you are at least putting 15% of your net-income away every month, your future will be very unpleasant.

FWIW: Most Saffers lack the disposable income because they live well beyond their means (2 cars, expensive house, high-end electronics) and pay no consideration for savings or retirement planning. Although OP has more disposable income, he does not seem to provision this for a solid investment plan (I read "more money on travel, nights out")
Click to expand...

Starting 2017 you have to contribute to your own pension fund. So I am saving, on top of everything. I am not putting away 15%, granted, but I am investing in property and some other investments...
 
StellenboschStudent said:
Like I said, I haven't been back for 2 years. Luckily my parents have come to visit, and also a couple of friends.

Food, yes, a lot more expensive. The first couple of weeks/months we tried to continue as we did in SA, but quickly ran into cash-flow problems. First thing we did was cut back on meat. That saved us a lot. Next was just to eat smaller portions.
We are now almost vegetarian - only eat meat when dining out, or a very special occasion at home. Also started online shopping and delivery, then I don't wander around the supermarket and buy stuff I don't need...
Click to expand...

Sorry ... I stopped reading till here. WAT?

There is no way I can go a day without meat. This is a big issue for me.
 
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