Two years living abroad

[Dave]

Food, yes, a lot more expensive. The first couple of weeks/months we tried to continue as we did in SA, but quickly ran into cash-flow problems. First thing we did was cut back on meat. That saved us a lot. Next was just to eat smaller portions.
We are now almost vegetarian - only eat meat when dining out, or a very special occasion at home. Also started online shopping and delivery, then I don't wander around the supermarket and buy stuff I don't need...

You haven't discovered Aldi yet?

Yes, we had a phone the police the other day, because our neighbors were that loud! This is a big pain, as all the houses are build as close together as humanly possible.

What area did you eventually settle on? Newcastle itself?

You know you get more for your money (and more space) if you get out of the actual city areas?

 

[maumau]

/snip

Tks MD4E, from your lips to god's ears.

Watching foreign game shows contestants always say they'll spend their winnings on holidays and having fun, S Africans say they'll pay it towards their debt.

 

[f2wohf]

I think perhaps OP needs to put some things in perspective as well as most believe that moving to Europe is a tremendous improvement in life-style. As someone who was born in Europe, came to SA in 1991 and then went back to work in Europe between 2000-2005 and am back in SA since 2005 I can only say:
- Although violent crime is substantially higher in SA, it does not mean that you have no crime in Europe:
-- The 2016 Munich shooting was in fact across my apartment in Munich and I would frequently walk to the Moosach mall.
-- If you are non-white, you will be exposed to more crime/hate-speech etc in Europe and will probably be treated worse than here
- Disposable income is generally higher because:
-- Food, clothing, electronics is cheap
-- Most people will not own a car as public transport is very good - the cost of filling up once will give you access to the whole metro-city network
-- Tax rates are lower and extra expenditures (security, medical aid, schooling) do not apply or are generally cheaper

I hated working and living in Munich. The first few months are exciting but when the "normal" returns you will realise that many things we are used to in SA do not exist:
- Housing is super expensive. A 40m2 apartment in the ****ty area I lived in was EUR750/pm. Buying the same would have cost EUR160K. Buying a simple house in the outskirts of a metro would easily cost EUR300K for 120m2 living room on 300-400m2 property
- Unless you work in a big metro, jobs will be scarce. Since you can not afford to live in the metro, you will probably spend a good 2 hours per day commuting
- A domestic worker / cleaner. Have fun wasting time on evenings/weekends to do the domestic chores. Yes, you can use a cleaning service but this will become inherently expensive
- Living with nosy neighbors - yes, they will get on your nerves
- Finding out "compulsory traditions" - to my dismay I learned that Stuttgart has something called "Kehrwoche" - I was not happy to learn that my rental agreement had a clause that every 6th week I had to clean staircases, sidewalks and shovel snow - have fun
- Although I never had an issue getting along with locals, an expat will always be considered a foreigner no matter how hard you try (less so in the UK and perhaps northern Europe)

TL;DR: Living abroad sounds great, but SA is still a fantastic place to be. I would not trade Europe/US for SA. For most of you only an english speaking country is an option. UK with Brexit will hit an economic disaster and the US has long not been the country of opportunity as people tend to make out. If you are an average employee and somehow manage to land a job overseas, your lifestyle will obviously dramatically improve (A Syrian refugee gets over EUR1k/pm for not working vs a janitor gets paid around EUR 1,5K/pm - more than most junior IT staff here).

You pretty much sum up why I am staying in SA.

I actually find my disposable income much higher here with the price of food/going out/housing being much lower than where I would work in Europe which would be Paris or London.

 

[Dave]

Sorry ... I stopped reading till here. WAT?

There is no way I can go a day without meat. This is a big issue for me.

It's not that expensive, it's just a matter of shopping wisely. I buy most meat either from independent butchers or Aldi. We eat meat almost every day.

https://www.aldi.co.uk/c/groceries/...us:nontransactional:priceValue:[0+TO+6]&text=

 

[MagicDude4Eva]

I once asked this a long time ago and I was told it is not an issue. I think the US or UK is better. I'm not sure about Australia and New Zealand

Most non-white people would naturally then live in areas where foreigners live - i.e. districts with subsidised housing. Most bigger cities have this. It is not uncommon that in Germany even the 3rd generation is not fluent in German and youth struggles with unemployment (not really an issue for the youth as they will generally get unemployment compensation in the region of EUR500-1K/pm).

You haven't discovered Aldi yet?

Meh - Aldi is the horrible. The discounter is all over Europe and originated from Germany. As kids we always felt that only extremely poor people go to Aldi and "normal" people go to Spar. For years my mum said that our local Aldi was selling horse-meat (it turned out that about 10 years ago it was found that they substituted beef-mince with horse mince). They would also frequently mislabel halal food (i.e. turkey, pork). In Germany/Austria I would rather shop at Billa, Spar, Hofer, Lidl (almost as bad as Aldi).

It will be highly unusual to have meat/fish more than 3 times a week (unless it is off-cuts or horrible quality). Steady food seems to be vegetables/starches (tons of bread / pasta). On the upside, Nutella and chocolate is super-cheap.

 

[Dave]

Most non-white people would naturally then live in areas where foreigners live - i.e. districts with subsidised housing. Most bigger cities have this. It is not uncommon that in Germany even the 3rd generation is not fluent in German and youth struggles with unemployment (not really an issue for the youth as they will generally get unemployment compensation in the region of EUR500-1K/pm).


Meh - Aldi is the horrible. The discounter is all over Europe and originated from Germany. As kids we always felt that only extremely poor people go to Aldi and "normal" people go to Spar. For years my mum said that our local Aldi was selling horse-meat (it turned out that about 10 years ago it was found that they substituted beef-mince with horse mince). They would also frequently mislabel halal food (i.e. turkey, pork). In Germany/Austria I would rather shop at Billa, Spar, Hofer, Lidl (almost as bad as Aldi).

You do realise you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about if you have no experience of Aldi UK?

they have very little in common with the German shop except for name, all meat is British in the U.K. branches, and of higher quality standards than the usual supermarkets here.

You could start by having a look at the awards Aldi UK have won for meat and fresh produce...

It will be highly unusual to have meat/fish more than 3 times a week (unless it is off-cuts or horrible quality). Steady food seems to be vegetables/starches (tons of bread / pasta). On the upside, Nutella and chocolate is super-cheap.

Your opinion again?

In the last week we have had roast pork, roast chicken, steak, spaghetti bolognese, chicken ala king, hamburgers, chicken curry and pork chops, I've got a nice joint of silverside for tonight.

 

[StellenboschStudent]

Sorry ... I stopped reading till here. WAT?

There is no way I can go a day without meat. This is a big issue for me.

I am sure you can fit meat in your budget... we just decided to cut it out for more reasons than just cost saving...

You haven't discovered Aldi yet?


What area did you eventually settle on? Newcastle itself?

You know you get more for your money (and more space) if you get out of the actual city areas?

I just cannot get used to the store layout of Aldi. You are walking next to fruit when all of a sudden it changes to car parts... But yes, that aside, prices are good. Currently we shop at Tesco, because it is walking distance (when we do go to the shop). But moving soon, then we will be closer to Aldi, so guess that will become my store of choice. Haven't tried Aldi or ASDA delivery.

In Gateshead, just across the river. I work about 25 miles south of there, closer to Durham, but the wife works in Newcastle. Since I asked her to leave SA, I compromised and took on the commute.

You do realise you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about if you have no experience of Aldi UK?

they have very little in common with the German shop except for name, all meat is British in the U.K. branches, and of higher quality standards than the usual supermarkets here.

You could start by having a look at the awards Aldi UK have won for meat and fresh produce...



Your opinion again?

In the last week we have had roast pork, roast chicken, steak, spaghetti bolognese, chicken ala king, hamburgers, chicken curry and pork chops, I've got a nice joint of silverside for tonight.

All the Aldi ads on tv - trying to convince people of this... all the friends we talk to say we are mad shopping at Tesco, they all shop at Aldi. And they are middle to lower-upper class. Everyone loves saving a few quid.

 

[Gtx Gaming]

Biggest "scam" in some of EU countries is car insurance

In Ireland they nail you for the size of the engine and how old the car is. Friend drives older nissan almera 1.5L, which was purchased for 900euro, insurance cost 2100euro a year on it lol. Keeping in mind it will probably never be stolen or hijacked in Ireland.

It gets cheaper as you build on your no claims bonus years, but it will also increase because the car gets older, so your forced to replace the car as it would be to expensive to keep it.

I am still considering Ireland soonish, wife has a UK passport and a Irish passport soon(Grandad is Irish). I Don't even need a visa, I just pack my bags and I am ready to go! Very good place work if you are in IT.

 

[bwana]

I haven't been back to SA in the 2 years (I would like to go back, but cannot find the time or money!), but I do miss certain things about home... However, I am now committing to a 25 year mortgage, so I won't be returning home anytime soon.

Converted salary (GBP - ZAR), is roughly the same as I made in SA (depending on what Zuma did and the strength or weakness of the Rand), I have waaaaayyyy more disposable income. After tax and a view bills (rent, electricity, etc.), I have more money to spend on travel, nights out with the Geordies... Which is great!

Those two seem at odds with one another.

 

[StellenboschStudent]

Those two seem at odds with one another.

Ha ha, true. Problem I have is, there is so much to see around here, that I cannot justify spending £600 to go back to SA. I rather spend £100 and go to Paris for a weekend, another £100 and go to Barcelona... I guess technically I can afford to go back, I just don't see the point (at this stage - most expats told me after 2 years you REALLY start to miss SA).

 

[bwana]

Ha ha, true. Problem I have is, there is so much to see around here, that I cannot justify spending £600 to go back to SA. I rather spend £100 and go to Paris for a weekend, another £100 and go to Barcelona... I guess technically I can afford to go back, I just don't see the point (at this stage - most expats told me after 2 years you REALLY start to miss SA).

The only thing I enjoy seeing when I'm in Newcastle is the sign saying You are now leaving Newcastle...

 

[StellenboschStudent]

The only thing I enjoy seeing when I'm in Newcastle is the sign saying You are now leaving Newcastle...

Newcastle isn't that bad. At times it feels like Cape Town - people are very friendly, the 1 or 2 days a year the weather is good it is fun outside.
It has its rough patches, and rough people... but all-in-all I like it.

 

[hj007]

It seemed that everyone was more equal overseas, so if you were a low earner in SA you'd do better in Europe, while if you were a high earner in SA you'd come back to the middle a bit in EU. I'm ignoring C-level as that is a whole another level.

 

[cguy]

It seemed that everyone was more equal overseas, so if you were a low earner in SA you'd do better in Europe, while if you were a high earner in SA you'd come back to the middle a bit in EU. I'm ignoring C-level as that is a whole another level.

It really depends on industry and skillset. The above is true much of the time, but there are some industries and jobs that just don't exist in SA, and others that have a completely different supply and demand profile overseas. As a software developer I was a high earner in SA, but overseas I became a much higher earner (accounting for relative CoL), because I moved into areas that were more suited for my skillset and had super high demand - this just wasn't possible in SA.

IIRC, the op was doing a postdoc. @OP is this still the case in the UK? I expect that once he has several years industry experience (if industry is his goal), there will be some pretty spectacular opportunities around the world.

 

[cguy]

- Although violent crime is substantially higher in SA, it does not mean that you have no crime in Europe.

True, although there is only a fixed finite amount of crime in the world. By the Conservation of Crime principle, if South Africa had just a little more crime, there would in fact be no more crime in Europe, so nearly there...

 

[akescpt]

**** ive just come a holiday in Europe and now want to live there. but being 41 will probably rule me out if i had a chance i would take the family. the first world blew my mind. so different. so leka. sure i was on holiday but the environment to raise kids seemed to be ideal.

 

[Dave]

I just cannot get used to the store layout of Aldi. You are walking next to fruit when all of a sudden it changes to car parts... But yes, that aside, prices are good. Currently we shop at Tesco, because it is walking distance (when we do go to the shop). But moving soon, then we will be closer to Aldi, so guess that will become my store of choice. Haven't tried Aldi or ASDA delivery.

In Gateshead, just across the river. I work about 25 miles south of there, closer to Durham, but the wife works in Newcastle. Since I asked her to leave SA, I compromised and took on the commute.

You'll have two local Aldi's if you stay there, there is one almost complete at the bottom of the hill near the flyover (the old bus depot site) and they've just received planning permission for another one right on top of the hill at Wrekenton .

All the Aldi ads on tv - trying to convince people of this... all the friends we talk to say we are mad shopping at Tesco, they all shop at Aldi. And they are middle to lower-upper class. Everyone loves saving a few quid.

We used to split shopping between Sainsbury's and M&S with the occasional trip to one of the big Tesco Extras, nowadays we shop almost weekly at Aldi with only a monthly trip to one of the others.

Their fresh produce and meat even stands up to comparisons to M&S.

 

[maumau]

True, although there is only a fixed finite amount of crime in the world. By the Conservation of Crime principle, if South Africa had just a little more crime, there would in fact be no more crime in Europe, so nearly there...

The difference being that in SA criminals get away with their crimes

 

[StellenboschStudent]

It really depends on industry and skillset. The above is true much of the time, but there are some industries and jobs that just don't exist in SA, and others that have a completely different supply and demand profile overseas. As a software developer I was a high earner in SA, but overseas I became a much higher earner (accounting for relative CoL), because I moved into areas that were more suited for my skillset and had super high demand - this just wasn't possible in SA.

IIRC, the op was doing a postdoc. @OP is this still the case in the UK? I expect that once he has several years industry experience (if industry is his goal), there will be some pretty spectacular opportunities around the world.

Moved to industry... And yes, current job is in a non-existing market in SA (semiconductors). There seems to be a more diverse range of jobs available - especially in industries you won't find in SA (high tech).

You'll have two local Aldi's if you stay there, there is one almost complete at the bottom of the hill near the flyover (the old bus depot site) and they've just received planning permission for another one right on top of the hill at Wrekenton .



We used to split shopping between Sainsbury's and M&S with the occasional trip to one of the big Tesco Extras, nowadays we shop almost weekly at Aldi with only a monthly trip to one of the others.

Their fresh produce and meat even stands up to comparisons to M&S.

Seems my shop of choice will change very soon.
Been to the Aldi close to the flyover... Nice and modern, with reasonable prices. Rarely shop at MS - prices just too expensive for what you get.
How long have you been in the Newcastle area?

 

[Dave]

Moved to industry... And yes, current job is in a non-existing market in SA (semiconductors). There seems to be a more diverse range of jobs available - especially in industries you won't find in SA (high tech).

You working at NETPark?

Seems my shop of choice will change very soon.
Been to the Aldi close to the flyover... Nice and modern, with reasonable prices. Rarely shop at MS - prices just too expensive for what you get.
How long have you been in the Newcastle area?

Been in and around the area for 20 years now, on and off.