UK honour attacks

[agerbon]

Honour killings are not prevalent to Islam alone.

It's a practice committed by all walks of life. In other words it's no good using Islam as the space goat to a problem that is quite prevalent to all walks of life.

 

[TJ99]

Honour killings are not prevalent to Islam alone.

It's a practice committed by all walks of life. In other words it's no good using Islam as the space goat to a problem that is quite prevalent to all walks of life.

Name 1 other religion that allows/encourages it. Also "space goat"??? :wtf:

 

[Mineer]

Why is that when ever a Muslim commits a crime the entire Muslim population is on trial

 

[copacetic]

Why is that when ever a Muslim commits a crime the entire Muslim population is on trial.

What percentage of the UK honour killings would you guess involves Muslims? (I don't know the answer)

Can you answer my questions posed earlier?

 

[copacetic]

Its 2823 of them that were reported in the UK, and appaerntly it's part of their culture.

Not just one guy slapping his chick around here.

To be fair, it doesn't say anything about Muslims in the article, and as mentioned, honour killings are not unique to Islam, so it's a bit of a reach to presume all those killings were done by Muslims.

My guess is that the majority of them were done by Muslims, but I'd love to be shown to be wrong.

 

[Azbubu]

South Africa has quite a significant Muslim population, no? I'm yet to hear of any honour killings here.

 

[copacetic]

I can't say that I'm familiar with the term "honour killings/attack" in the western world, maybe spousal abuse", or "wife beating".

And


based on where the numbers are coming from, I'm going to assume it's not the regular easily sunburnt, warm beer slugging poms they're talking about here.

Non Western ≠ Muslim.

 

[agerbon]

Name 1 other religion that allows/encourages it. Also "space goat"??? :wtf:

All of them.

Here is the definition of honour killings;

An honour killing is the homicide of a member of a family or social group by other members, due to the belief of the perpetrators that the victim has brought dishonor upon the family or community.

The article though is not very clear as to who the perpetrators are. Yet this thread went into a stance that Islam is to blame. Possibly due to the mentioning of Iran and the pictures on the article.

Sorry typo with scapegoat.

 

[Apache]

Multiculturalism is a strength? Looks like the UK is going backwards.

 

[Nick333]

All of them.

Here is the definition of honour killings;

An honour killing is the homicide of a member of a family or social group by other members, due to the belief of the perpetrators that the victim has brought dishonor upon the family or community.

The article though is not very clear as to who the perpetrators are. Yet this thread went into a stance that Islam is to blame. Possibly due to the mentioning of Iran and the pictures on the article.

Sorry typo with scapegoat.

I don't know about all of them but it would seem, in Europe at least, it's a thing amongst Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs with Muslims being the biggest perpetrators.

While precise figures do not exist for the perpetrators' cultural backgrounds, Diana Nammi of the UK's Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation is reported to have said: "about two-thirds are Muslim. Yet they can also be Hindu and Sikh"[34]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Europe

In fact it would seem that honour killings are mainly a Muslim thing in most parts of the world. It may not be part of the religion but it's certainly part of the culture.

 

[Mineer]

What percentage of the UK honour killings would you guess involves Muslims? (I don't know the answer)

What percentage of home violence that ends in death in Muslim families compared to other denominations? ay but you wont find many articles not sensationalizing those it so quiet on that front you'd swear that violence against woman does not happen at all, lets sensationalize it by calling it honour killings when there is no honour in these killings but then again I just had a thought at least Muslim women's plight get more air time so we can better tackle problems

Can you answer my questions posed earlier?

I answered many times and simply tired of re-posting go google search there

 

[Azbubu]

Its attacks, not killings they're mentioning here.
And not about "space goats" either.

Well same question applies then, not heard of honor attacks here and I'm sure there's a large Muslim community.

So let me understand this: for example, let's say a Muslim woman cheats, her husband beats her up = honour attack?

Other woman cheats, her husband beats her up = Women abuse?

Not just a matter of semantics?

Space goat!

 

[Nick333]

What percentage of home violence that ends in death in Muslim families compared to other denominations? ay but you wont find many articles not sensationalizing those it so quiet on that front you'd swear that violence against woman does not happen at all, lets sensationalize it by calling it honour killings when there is no honour in these killings but then again I just had a thought at least Muslim women's plight get more air time so we can better tackle problems

Lol. I think you'll find almost 3000 in one demographic is hugely disproportionate.

 

[copacetic]

What percentage of home violence that ends in death in Muslim families compared to other denominations? ay but you wont find many articles not sensationalizing those it so quiet on that front you'd swear that violence against woman does not happen at all, lets sensationalize it by calling it honour killings when there is no honour in these killings but then again I just had a thought at least Muslim women's plight get more air time so we can better tackle problems

I understand that matters Islamic are often sensationalized, which is why I'm asking, not telling.

I answered many times and simply tired of re-posting go google search there

Google for what though? My basic feeling is that Islam, like most other religions, can be interpreted however the reader sees fit, am I wrong about this?

 

[Nerfherder]

Why is that when ever a Muslim commits a crime the entire Muslim population is on trial

Because when things like this happen we hear a great silence from the Muslim community.

No condemnation, no unifying call to eradicate this practice, no face of Islam that will stand up and deny that this is inspired by the Koran.


Instead we get the hard and strong wall of denial, with the constant reminder that we are the west and we must tolerate anything that can be hidden under the veil of religious freedom.

 

[agerbon]

I don't know about all of them but it would seem, in Europe at least, it's a thing amongst Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs with Muslims being the biggest perpetrators.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Europe

In fact it would seem that honour killings are mainly a Muslim thing in most parts of the world. It may not be part of the religion but it's certainly part of the culture.

I'm trying to be unbiased about it you see and the article is not very clear.

It's my understanding that there seems to be a very thin line between honor attacks/killings to domestic violence. This makes me wonder if 'honour attacks/killings' is a label being used to highlight Islam in a biased way. In other words would such an act of violence committed by a common British person also be seen as a honor attack/kill or be seen as domestic violence.

This is what makes the article unclear to me.

 

[Nerfherder]

What percentage of home violence that ends in death in Muslim families compared to other denominations? ay but you wont find many articles not sensationalizing those it so quiet on that front you'd swear that violence against woman does not happen at all, lets sensationalize it by calling it honour killings when there is no honour in these killings but then again I just had a thought at least Muslim women's plight get more air time so we can better tackle problems

Violence against woman is a worldwide problem, how often is it condoned by a culture or religion though?
I'm not a hypocrite, I'll speak out against it when ever I see it.

 

[Nick333]

I'm trying to be unbiased about it you see and the article is not very clear.

It's my understanding that there seems to be a very thin line between honor attacks/killings to domestic violence. This makes me wonder if 'honour attacks/killings' is a label being used to highlight Islam in a biased way. In other words would such an act of violence committed by a common British person also be seen as a honor attack/kill or be seen as domestic violence.

This is what makes the article unclear to me.

Well, the figures quoted are incidents of honour attacks from the UK police and the Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation. Unless you think those organisations are deliberately putting a spin on their stats I don't see any reason to doubt that they are indeed honour attacks. It seems reasonably clear to me.

Incidently, most of the stories of honour attacks I've read about are on daughters and sisters , not spouses.

 

[LithIX]

Punishing a cheating wife is one thing, but mutilating your raped sister is another!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using MyBroadband Android App

 

[CaTcH21]

Please explain Verse 4:34 of the Qur'an to me.

Men are the managers of women, because of the advantage Allah has granted some of them over others, and by virtue of their spending out of their wealth. So righteous women are obedient, care-taking in the absence [of their husbands] of what Allah has enjoined [them] to guard. As for those [wives] whose misconduct you fear, [first] advise them, and [if ineffective] keep away from them in the bed, and [as the last resort] beat them. Then if they obey you, do not seek any course [of action] against them. Indeed Allah is all-exalted, all-great.

You see, this is the problem to begin with. You take the verses totally out of context, and this is the problem with the ignorant muslims , they too take this out of context.

Firstly you need to understand that translating from Arabic to english is not simple.

The arabic word used for ‘ill-conduct/rebellion’ = nushooz


The arabic word used in verse 4:34 above is "idribuhunna", which is derived from "daraba" .The word in Arabic means to "strike" or "hit". It inludes everything from a tap with a tooth-stick to what in English we call beating. If it is stated that so-and-so "hit" so-and-so without further description, it would be assumed to be a single blow and it could be of any magnitude. When the Prophet took a tiny stick and tapped one of the Muslims on the stomach to straighten the ranks in preparation for war, he "hit" him with this meaning. Contrast this to the English phrase: "beat them". The meaning is totally different. If you took a shoe lace and hit someone on the hand with it, you could properly say dharabtahu in Arabic but in English you could never say that you had "beaten" that person.

Does the Arabic word 'daraba' necessarily mean "violent or intense or repeated striking?


No, jurists routinely use the expression "daraba al-ma' `ala wajhihi" - lit. strike water upon the face, for someone accomplishing the first rukn of wudu' (washing the face).

Also in Arabic daraba al-ard "to strike the earth" - as in verse 4:94 {When you strike the earth in the cause of Allah} - means to travel, i.e. walking with a staff.

The Prophet (pbuh) also expressed astonishment at the cruelty of certain men when he said: "Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening ?" (Bukhari and Muslim, Authentic hadith books).

Now I can go on and on about this topic but the above should give you an idea of what the verse means and how people are using it to suit their own needs.

I will be the first to admit that I am purposefully looking for 'negative' verses in these texts you mention, from a position of relative ignorance. I don't know all that much about Islam, but I'd imagine like most religions it's a hodgepodge of notions, good, bad, sensible, and incoherent.

Cherry-picking? Yes, but that's sort of what you were asking for.

Incorrect translations? To be sure, I'd have no way to tell, but I'm perusing sites now, where the articles seem to be written by Muslims/ex-Muslims, who seem to know their stuff.

http://www.islam-watch.org/Sami/Women-in-Words-of-Prophet-Muhammad.htm:



Stoning a women to death for adultery? That's horrid, isn't it?



Why does she need permission?

***

Are Muslims allowed to be friends with me?:



http://www.islam-watch.org/Kammuna/Beating-Women-Sanctioned-By-Allah-Prophet.htm:



Is this true? The article makes a perfectly sensible case that it is.

***

Anyhow, as to be expected from ancient writings, written by uneducated people (all religious texts, for the most part), mixed up, and mashed up over the centuries, it's a mixed bag, and as is patently obvious, is interpreted in a manner that most pleases the reader.

And far too often these readers are dangerous maniacs (not in itself the fault of any one religion, but if the writing is unclear enough so that the dangerous folk can twist it to their will, I am forced to question the divine nature of any holy text).

Stoning for a person who commits adultery is not only for females, it is for males too. This is undder the condition that there were/are four witnesses to the act of adultery. Now this again goes into a whole detailed explanation of how to trial such people. If you seriously interested in this let me know so i can get the information for you.

As for Muslims not able to befriend a non-muslim, you are looking at it too deep in a sense that Muslims and Non-Muslims have different ways and practises. At some point the action(s) of the Non-Muslim will be against Islamic Law, like drinking alcohol, like eating non-halaal foods etc. I have many non-muslim friends,actually my best friend is a non-muslim, but I know where to draw the line. I hope you understand what im trying to say (?)

any question I didnt answer ?