Unbundling a 2-way switch

[SauRoNZA]

So how the hell do I go about undoing this silliness?

I have at least three of them in the house which is now a problem wanting to go with Smart Switches.

1. How do I figure out which is the primary switch?

2. How do I figure out which is the connecting wire?

3. When I figured it out do I simply undo it and insulate both sides? I don’t need to bridge anything from how I understand this setup.

4. So now I have a dead second switch. Could I maybe make use of a no neutral type unit in there without the relay attached and still make it turn the same light on?

 

[The_Ogre]

@Geoff.D

 

[The_Ogre]

With mine I just connected the smart switch switch to one side and put a faceplate on the other side to cover the buttons.

I didn't disconnect any cables from the covered switch. It feels like ages ago can't remember 100%.

But Geoff is the pro.

 

[SauRoNZA]

With mine I just connected the smart switch switch to one side and put a faceplate on the other side to cover the buttons.

I didn't disconnect any cables from the covered switch. It feels like ages ago can't remember 100%.

But Geoff is the pro.

Yeah that is an option and then I just need to figure out which one I don’t connect to the secondary runner switch.

It would be nice if I could still make use of it purely to not confuse the normal people.

Replacement multimeter coming in the week.

 

[Tinuva]

What smart switch do you want to use?

I used a shelly at the primary switch and kept the second in place. So I still have 2 physical switches that switch on/off to the shelly and the shelly in turn switch light on/off.

So if HA is down, I still have normal functionality of the 2 way switch, same as before making it "smart".

 

[krieg]

So how the hell do I go about undoing this silliness?

I have at least three of them in the house which is now a problem wanting to go with Smart Switches.

1. How do I figure out which is the primary switch?

2. How do I figure out which is the connecting wire?

3. When I figured it out do I simply undo it and insulate both sides? I don’t need to bridge anything from how I understand this setup.

4. So now I have a dead second switch. Could I maybe make use of a no neutral type unit in there without the relay attached and still make it turn the same light on?

The primary switch would have more wires coming in. The secondary switch should have three wires. You can reuse the wires and extend a neutral to the secondary switch.

 

[SauRoNZA]

There's a 2 wire method and a 1 wire method of connecting it. Figure out which first.

View attachment 1334434

In both, only live will be found in the switch box unless the leccy used twin and earth and directed neutral elsewhere.

Yeah I have 3-wires on both sides hence my confusion.

 

[SauRoNZA]

The primary switch would have more wires coming in. The secondary switch should have three wires. You can reuse the wires and extend a neutral to the secondary switch.

So I have three wires on both sides of the one I've opened up and would imagine the others are the same.

But you make a very good point of using it to share a neutral to the other switch and solving that problem.

Would it be as simple as bridging the neutral?

For that matter I see some of these switches only have one neutral coming in, and in my case I've got ceiling fans wired in the switch with a Neutral In and Neutral out....I would imagine I can just connect both to the same neutral pin to bridge the connection.

 

[SauRoNZA]

What smart switch do you want to use?

I used a shelly at the primary switch and kept the second in place. So I still have 2 physical switches that switch on/off to the shelly and the shelly in turn switch light on/off.

So if HA is down, I still have normal functionality of the 2 way switch, same as before making it "smart".

I'm probably going to end up using these because they can do both Neutral and No Neutral and they have high WAF.

Tuya Smart Light Switch - 4Ch White No-Neutral at 50% OFF - ISP Home

The Mvava wall switch is a smart wifi enabled replacement switch for your traditional "dumb" switch. Where other wifi switches typically require a Neutral wire as well, THIS SWITCH CAN BE INSTALLED WITHOUT A NEUTRAL WIRE.

isphome.co.za

The entire 2-way thing is a non-feature for me but for the rest of the house and the habit of pushing the buttons I figured it would probably be a good idea to keep 2-way action. So it's not the end of the world if it doesn't work while HA is offline but would mean when I sell the house I may want to blank plate those.

This being Tuya it would fail over to the cloud anyway, so there is that.

There's one I want to get rid of entirely as it's just pointless and makes for a massive 4-gang monstrosity.

 

[krieg]

So I have three wires on both sides of the one I've opened up and would imagine the others are the same.

But you make a very good point of using it to share a neutral to the other switch and solving that problem.

Would it be as simple as bridging the neutral?

For that matter I see some of these switches only have one neutral coming in, and in my case I've got ceiling fans wired in the switch with a Neutral In and Neutral out....I would imagine I can just connect both to the same neutral pin to bridge the connection.

You can simply connect the neutral to the wire you are going to use as the new neutral as long as they are on the same circuit.

I'm probably going to end up using these because they can do both Neutral and No Neutral and they have high WAF.

Tuya Smart Light Switch - 4Ch White No-Neutral at 50% OFF - ISP Home

The Mvava wall switch is a smart wifi enabled replacement switch for your traditional "dumb" switch. Where other wifi switches typically require a Neutral wire as well, THIS SWITCH CAN BE INSTALLED WITHOUT A NEUTRAL WIRE.

isphome.co.za

The entire 2-way thing is a non-feature for me but for the rest of the house and the habit of pushing the buttons I figured it would probably be a good idea to keep 2-way action. So it's not the end of the world if it doesn't work while HA is offline but would mean when I sell the house I may want to blank plate those.

This being Tuya it would fail over to the cloud anyway, so there is that.

There's one I want to get rid of entirely as it's just pointless and makes for a massive 4-gang monstrosity.

Does the smart switches have to be wired directly each of them or can you simply wire one and the rest of the switches simply connect wirelessly to the main switch.

You can also wire a bypass switch that will turn it on when no internet.

 

[MidnightZA]

I'm probably going to end up using these because they can do both Neutral and No Neutral and they have high WAF.

Tuya Smart Light Switch - 4Ch White No-Neutral at 50% OFF - ISP Home

The Mvava wall switch is a smart wifi enabled replacement switch for your traditional "dumb" switch. Where other wifi switches typically require a Neutral wire as well, THIS SWITCH CAN BE INSTALLED WITHOUT A NEUTRAL WIRE.

isphome.co.za

I just placed my order for those a few hours ago. Already handed to the courier already and I should get it by Monday.

Following this thread. I also have one 2 way switch

After seeing this I realized I ordered an extra 2 gang (could have been a 1 gang). I didnt account for the 2 way and one end will become redundant lol. The switch wont go to waste though

 

[SauRoNZA]

Does the smart switches have to be wired directly each of them or can you simply wire one and the rest of the switches simply connect wirelessly to the main switch.

My understanding was that you remove the relay action from the secondary switch and just use it as a smart button to trigger the same switch.

So they'd be wired to each other in this case to run the Live and Neutral from the one switch to the other as per your suggestion, but the second switch wouldn't actually bridge a Live but instead just trigger an automation action.

 

[SauRoNZA]

I just placed my order for those a few hours ago. Already handed to the courier already and I should get it by Monday.

Following this thread. I also have one 2 way switch

After seeing this I realized I ordered an extra 2 gang (could have been a 1 gang). I didnt account for the 2 way and one end will become redundant lol. The switch wont go to waste though

Ha ha, the lack of 1-gang stock is exactly why I haven't ordered and it's exactly what this thread is about as I figured I would do my tested on this pair of switches with 1-gang + 2-gang and if all is happy then buy the rest.

Maybe I should just order 2 x 2-gangs and then I can just change them later as I'll be using 2-gangs in most cases anyway.

But will be interested to follow your results so either post here or link a new thread.

 

[MidnightZA]

Ha ha, the lack of 1-gang stock is exactly why I haven't ordered and it's exactly what this thread is about as I figured I would do my tested on this pair of switches with 1-gang + 2-gang and if all is happy then buy the rest.

Maybe I should just order 2 x 2-gangs and then I can just change them later as I'll be using 2-gangs in most cases anyway.

But will be interested to follow your results so either post here or link a new thread.

There is stock of the black 1 gang in your link. I got a few of those. It would match my place.

Ill update when its installed. Will only be late next week probably

 

[Gielie01]

So how the hell do I go about undoing this silliness?

I have at least three of them in the house which is now a problem wanting to go with Smart Switches.

1. How do I figure out which is the primary switch?

2. How do I figure out which is the connecting wire?

3. When I figured it out do I simply undo it and insulate both sides? I don’t need to bridge anything from how I understand this setup.

4. So now I have a dead second switch. Could I maybe make use of a no neutral type unit in there without the relay attached and still make it turn the same light on?

@SauRoNZA

I am by no means a qualified electrician but I can find my way about most things I need.

Firstly, understanding the basic connecting principle of how 2 way switches are wired in south africa.


The diagram is pretty basic, but you have a NO/NC switch on both sides.
This will also show you why you have 3 wires.

Switch 1
1. Your feed from the DB
2. goes to the other switch
3. goes to the other switch

Switch 1
1. Your feed to the Light
2. goes to the other switch
3. goes to the other switch

Depending on the age of the wiring, the neutral wire might not come down to the actual switch, this design principle changed over the years as regulations changed.

In terms of finding wires, this would be a good tool to start.

Electric tester screwdriver TORKCRAFT

Touch the tip of the tester screwdriver to the wire you're testing, being sure to hold the tester screwdriver's insulated handle. Look at the handle of the screwdriver. If the small neon light in the handle lights up, there is power going to the circuit.

leroymerlin.co.za

Turning off the mains power/ power for the light switches.
Open both switches, take photos, mark the wires. Disconnect them all.
Make sure they dont touch NOTHING, turn the power on and test with the tool for the live wire. That is you primary feed from the DB.

For the rest youd hope a money didnt wire your house and that the wires are color coded in some form.

You would then decide which switch you want to be your now "primary" as you would need power, neutral and the feed to the light all in a single box, this can easily be accomplished by "asapting" the current wiring to suite your needs, and by this I mean, using the old wires to take your live feed to the box with the feed to the light or vice versa.

I hope this helped you in some way.

 

[SauRoNZA]

@SauRoNZA

I am by no means a qualified electrician but I can find my way about most things I need.

Firstly, understanding the basic connecting principle of how 2 way switches are wired in south africa.
View attachment 1334710

The diagram is pretty basic, but you have a NO/NC switch on both sides.
This will also show you why you have 3 wires.

Switch 1
1. Your feed from the DB
2. goes to the other switch
3. goes to the other switch

Switch 1
1. Your feed to the Light
2. goes to the other switch
3. goes to the other switch

Depending on the age of the wiring, the neutral wire might not come down to the actual switch, this design principle changed over the years as regulations changed.

In terms of finding wires, this would be a good tool to start.

Electric tester screwdriver TORKCRAFT

Touch the tip of the tester screwdriver to the wire you're testing, being sure to hold the tester screwdriver's insulated handle. Look at the handle of the screwdriver. If the small neon light in the handle lights up, there is power going to the circuit.

leroymerlin.co.za

Turning off the mains power/ power for the light switches.
Open both switches, take photos, mark the wires. Disconnect them all.
Make sure they dont touch NOTHING, turn the power on and test with the tool for the live wire. That is you primary feed from the DB.

For the rest youd hope a money didnt wire your house and that the wires are color coded in some form.

You would then decide which switch you want to be your now "primary" as you would need power, neutral and the feed to the light all in a single box, this can easily be accomplished by "asapting" the current wiring to suite your needs, and by this I mean, using the old wires to take your live feed to the box with the feed to the light or vice versa.

I hope this helped you in some way.

Okay maybe to explain a bit further I know the one switch (a 2-gang) is the "main" switch and that it has neutrals coming down as it also powers a ceiling fan and it appears everywhere in my house where there's a ceiling fan there are neutrals for some reason that doesn't make sense to me....but bonus for me.

So that switch is a 2-gang with 1 switch for the ceiling fan and 1 switch for the light which is then on a 2-way link to a switch literally within stretching distance of this very same one and that also has three wires coming out of it.

And they are all colour coded in black and red so that makes life a bit easier and all the neutral wired switches are also marked with N & L so that goes a long way.

I guess my main question is really how to identify which of the three wires on the main switch is the Live and doing so using a multimeter. Simply check for voltage between a wire and ground? Then if I see voltage that is my Common. Probably less painful to run to Brights and just get the single point tester.

What I'm worried about is your diagram states my wiring up to the light would only be on the secondary switch on the other side right? So I would need to bridge that wire and bring it back to the first switch to make the light actually turn on?

I guess the markings on the switch itself would also help, maybe a good start would be some pictures there and posting them here.

 

[Tinuva]

Okay maybe to explain a bit further I know the one switch (a 2-gang) is the "main" switch and that it has neutrals coming down as it also powers a ceiling fan and it appears everywhere in my house where there's a ceiling fan there are neutrals for some reason that doesn't make sense to me....but bonus for me.

So that switch is a 2-gang with 1 switch for the ceiling fan and 1 switch for the light which is then on a 2-way link to a switch literally within stretching distance of this very same one and that also has three wires coming out of it.

And they are all colour coded in black and red so that makes life a bit easier and all the neutral wired switches are also marked with N & L so that goes a long way.

I guess my main question is really how to identify which of the three wires on the main switch is the Live and doing so using a multimeter. Simply check for voltage between a wire and ground? Then if I see voltage that is my Common. Probably less painful to run to Brights and just get the single point tester.

What I'm worried about is your diagram states my wiring up to the light would only be on the secondary switch on the other side right? So I would need to bridge that wire and bring it back to the first switch to make the light actually turn on?

I guess the markings on the switch itself would also help, maybe a good start would be some pictures there and posting them here.

The physical switch shouldnt have a neutral connected to it, even if you have a neutral in the box, it will just be chained directly forward to the light.

So what you want, is to know the following:
1. incoming live wire from the db
2. outgoing live wire to the light

Once you have those 2 located, you can do your wifi switch any way you want.

I cant actually remember how I figured mine out, it was very easy once I figured out which side had both the incoming and outgoing live wires. Both were in the same box actually, and the 2nd switch box just had a wire from the 1st box.

 

[SauRoNZA]

The physical switch shouldnt have a neutral connected to it, even if you have a neutral in the box, it will just be chained directly forward to the light.

So what you want, is to know the following:
1. incoming live wire from the db
2. outgoing live wire to the light

Once you have those 2 located, you can do your wifi switch any way you want.

I cant actually remember how I figured mine out, it was very easy once I figured out which side had both the incoming and outgoing live wires. Both were in the same box actually, and the 2nd switch box just had a wire from the 1st box.

My neutral isn't in the box but already wired to the switch on two sides with a Load and Line going back to the ceiling fan. Why I don't know but that's how I found it, but that's irrelevant to the light in the same box which is the 2-way. So you are correct about the neutral not being involved here, but I'll need it on the new switch regardless.

Definitely have 3-wires (Live/Red) on each side of the normal light switch part and hence the confusion.

But I'll take some pictures this weekend and maybe go pick up a tester to make life easier too.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Aaah this makes it a bit simpler to find the Load (Light) wire, by connecting everything together at the main switch and then testing the secondary and the wire that doesn't have power is the one going to the light.

I'm lucky with this one switch that I may just be able to do a continuity test at both ends of the wires to figure out which is which on both ends because they are so close together, but I'm going to be stuffed for the others.

 

[Gielie01]

I guess my main question is really how to identify which of the three wires on the main switch is the Live and doing so using a multimeter. Simply check for voltage between a wire and ground? Then if I see voltage that is my Common. Probably less painful to run to Brights and just get the single point tester.

What I'm worried about is your diagram states my wiring up to the light would only be on the secondary switch on the other side right? So I would need to bridge that wire and bring it back to the first switch to make the light actually turn on?

I guess the markings on the switch itself would also help, maybe a good start would be some pictures there and posting them here.

To answer these to the best of my bastardized abilities.

There should be a "link" on the 2 gang a "common" wire that goes to both switches, this would make the most sense as they would use the same feed from the DB.

So for the feed to the light my statement could both be right and wrong, ill give you 2 examples below.
Take some photos and we can see how we can help you out.

Option 1
As above the feed to the light goes from the 2nd switch to the light

Option 2.
It is entirely possible that the 3rd wire from the switch in the secondary switch also goes back to the primary switch, as it is used as a junction box, and that the light is then powered from there.

Youve stated that you are sure you have neutrals there, im asuming you have earth wires too.

In this case option 2 is very likely.

If this is the case I can try explain how the wiring would be "structured"

You would have a 3 core feed cable from the DB.
The Live would power both switches in the primary switch,

A 3 core cable from there that the Live connects to power the Fan and the earth and neutral are connected to the other earth and neutral.

You would have a 3 core cable(typically) that 2 of the wires connect to the 2 way switch.
On the other end all 3 cores from this cable connects to the switch.
The 3rd cable in the primary box would then be connected to the Live Feed for the light as the earth and neutral are junctioned in that box.

All this does is ensures the feed comes from a single distribution point.



Hey look, I tried to make a diagram

Best is take some photos.