US politics general thread

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Your post about me is a pretty good one-line summary.

The deeper roots lie in how academia (and I would say the media as well) continuously misrepresents conservatism. Just how you have people on the right misrepresenting liberalism.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...t-know-much-about-conservative-history-219742

The oft-repeated mantra about how conservatives don't care for poor people comes to mind. It is simply nonsense if you look at the policies that are passed as a whole. It is the exact same thing as the ANC does to the DA when the DA makes a policy proposal of anything other than Marxism.

A conservative, Republican official thinks liberals don't understand conservatives, and that actually conservatives are very nice people? Well, gosh...

I mean, it could be that they've considered the relentless action of conservatives to gut programmes that help poor people.

Social Security, food stamps, and other programs kept 44 million people out of poverty last year

What I really don't know how to deal with is someone who defends everything Trump does, then tries to tell you that they aren't right wing. Either you're completely delusional and you need to construct some kind of self-image because of cognitive dissonance, or you're debating in bad faith and pretending to be an objective arbiter of the truth so that you don't get called out on your own beliefs.

This is an interesting phenomenon which seems to happen everywhere. They can't bring themselves to even try to defend Trump directly, so they go for an anti-anti-Trump style instead. Ignore the relentless lies he tells, and awful stuff he does, then zero in like a laser-guided missile on any perceived misstep by people who don't like Trump and hammer on that endlessly.

I also abhor political positioning on a spectrum, that's why I didn't really want to mention it, as I think certain core values and beliefs can fall anywhere on the spectrum, and not all of them into a single one. That's why I always try to understand what is being debated based on the core issue at hand, and not based on the politics around it (Democratic vs Republican / Trump vs Clinton). All arguments across the spectrum are however needed to get to balanced and fair views/law/decisions.

The left/right divide is mostly outdated and struggles to adequately categorise most political viewpoints, especially in the modern era. It emerged out of a specific French political context a very long time ago, so not too much of a surprise that it isn't all that fit for purpose everywhere, I guess!

But what's interesting about centrism (or what many think of as centrism) is that many people think it means you just have a moderate view of either left or right issues. While in practice it quite often actually ends up being people who have a cross-section of rather radical views from both sides. So like the Bannon wing of Trumpism shares the fervent nationalism and racism of the far right, while not at all minding heavy government intervention in things like infrastructure or trade.

Not everything Trump does is right wing though. That is why he drove a wrecking ball through the GOP.

Trade tariffs for example were largely rejected from the Republicans until Trump. The candidate that most strongly agreed with him on those was Bernie.

Immigration was another thing that Trump brought to the stage that was not a right wing position, as from an economic standpoint: the evil greedy republicans would stand to benefit greatly from hoards of cheap labor.

You're right, re. Bernie - they also agree on the TTRP, for example. In that they oppose it anyway.

What's interesting is that Republicans have adopted his platform whole sale. Individual senators will tut-tut (like Ben Sasse) but won't do anything.

But the racist side of what he's brought to immigration has always been there on the right, but the Republicans managed to balance the racist wing with the economic/business-friendly wing that like immigration. It was always untenable, though. He just broke it open a bit more.

Did you see that the article was changed?



How about that grift? And bad reporting from the NYT? :ROFL:

That's not grift...

But anyway, good on them for correcting it, wouldn't you say? Not something Breitbart or Fox ever do... :)

A lot of what you describe as potential damage is only damage if you hold to a particular opinion or set of opinions. If you hold different opinions you might well describe these examples as overdue reforms.

Yes, it does depend whether you agree with what he does or not. Like, for example, I think it's bad that people die from pollution, so the fact that his own EPA determined 1400 people will likely die because he cut pollution regulation is, to me, pretty bad. Given that I think we need to confront climate change, I also think it's bad that he's cutting methane emission regulations.

Incidentally, why is it wrong to stack the Supreme Court with right wing (in your view: I think that to talk in such two dimensional terms is an oversimplification) when others did the same thing but in a left wing direction?

Well, it's bad because it seems like a good idea to have proper oversight for life time appointments. Trump literally outsourced the process of judge nominations to the Federal Society - a right wing group with a very clear conservative judicial agenda in mind - not merely rigorous and diligent application of the law. And no, the left wing never stacked the Supreme Court with nominees. In fact, their nominees get blocked on spurious grounds. Before the 2016 election senior Republican Senators were saying they aim to keep the Supreme Court seat open throughout the whole presidency if Clinton won. That's blatantly anti-democratic practice.

Their whole legislative approach has been incredibly cynical and cloaked in darkness. No proper hearings or impact assessments of any of the huge bills they pass. Contrasted to Obama's effort with the ACA where he spent months trying to find common ground with Republicans and making compromises to build consensus. Not just ramming it through at great cost.
 
A conservative, Republican official thinks liberals don't understand conservatives, and that actually conservatives are very nice people? Well, gosh...

I mean, it could be that they've considered the relentless action of conservatives to gut programmes that help poor people.

Social Security, food stamps, and other programs kept 44 million people out of poverty last year



This is an interesting phenomenon which seems to happen everywhere. They can't bring themselves to even try to defend Trump directly, so they go for an anti-anti-Trump style instead. Ignore the relentless lies he tells, and awful stuff he does, then zero in like a laser-guided missile on any perceived misstep by people who don't like Trump and hammer on that endlessly.



The left/right divide is mostly outdated and struggles to adequately categorise most political viewpoints, especially in the modern era. It emerged out of a specific French political context a very long time ago, so not too much of a surprise that it isn't all that fit for purpose everywhere, I guess!

But what's interesting about centrism (or what many think of as centrism) is that many people think it means you just have a moderate view of either left or right issues. While in practice it quite often actually ends up being people who have a cross-section of rather radical views from both sides. So like the Bannon wing of Trumpism shares the fervent nationalism and racism of the far right, while not at all minding heavy government intervention in things like infrastructure or trade.



You're right, re. Bernie - they also agree on the TTRP, for example. In that they oppose it anyway.

What's interesting is that Republicans have adopted his platform whole sale. Individual senators will tut-tut (like Ben Sasse) but won't do anything.

But the racist side of what he's brought to immigration has always been there on the right, but the Republicans managed to balance the racist wing with the economic/business-friendly wing that like immigration. It was always untenable, though. He just broke it open a bit more.



That's not grift...

But anyway, good on them for correcting it, wouldn't you say? Not something Breitbart or Fox ever do... :)



Yes, it does depend whether you agree with what he does or not. Like, for example, I think it's bad that people die from pollution, so the fact that his own EPA determined 1400 people will likely die because he cut pollution regulation is, to me, pretty bad. Given that I think we need to confront climate change, I also think it's bad that he's cutting methane emission regulations.



Well, it's bad because it seems like a good idea to have proper oversight for life time appointments. Trump literally outsourced the process of judge nominations to the Federal Society - a right wing group with a very clear conservative judicial agenda in mind - not merely rigorous and diligent application of the law. And no, the left wing never stacked the Supreme Court with nominees. In fact, their nominees get blocked on spurious grounds. Before the 2016 election senior Republican Senators were saying they aim to keep the Supreme Court seat open throughout the whole presidency if Clinton won. That's blatantly anti-democratic practice.

Their whole legislative approach has been incredibly cynical and cloaked in darkness. No proper hearings or impact assessments of any of the huge bills they pass. Contrasted to Obama's effort with the ACA where he spent months trying to find common ground with Republicans and making compromises to build consensus. Not just ramming it through at great cost.
You make some powerfully interesting points, which I will consider before I respond. I might well take issue with you on the subject of climate change: not as to whether it exists, but rather as to whether or not the causes presently given are correct.
 
There's a lot of complex questions, but initially your point was that Trump is too ineffectual to do much, and I'm stating that his own incompetence is a feature, not a glitch, to many of the idealogues and grifters in the party.

If you want to ask whether his accomplishments are deleterious, it does depend where you sit on the political fence. However when it comes to gutting and thwarting the objectives of federal agencies that exist to protect the US public, the sciences, consumer and reproductive rights, education, healthcare, pensions, the environment and so on, it's hard for me to see it as anything other than damage.

As far as stacking the Supreme Court, it's actually a very undemocratic process. The Republicans blockaded Obama's initial choice Merrick Garland, then steamrolled Neil Gorsuch into the bench without nearly adequate supervision - and are bent on doing the same for Kavanaugh. Kavanaugh has been caught out lying on multiple occasions under the questioning, and it's being routinely ignored. Something like 100,000 emails were concealed under the flimsiest of pretenses.

As for its being the will of the people - in fact it's exactly the opposite. The Trump administration is historically unpopular and pushing a minority agenda that's largely unrelated to the platform promises Trump was elected on.

https://amp.slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/09/democracy-threat-from-minority-rule-not-people.html
You raise some serious issues, which need consideration. for example I am not convinced that only Trump has packed the judiciary in the past, but you seem to be focussed only on what Trump has done, with a potential loss of balance in the argument. I rather suspect that Trump would claim that he is only reversing the sins of others, and if he does not have the wit to do so, others will.
 
Sounds like there's a number of things you aren't convinced about, despite the facts being plain and simple.
 
Sounds like there's a number of things you aren't convinced about, despite the facts being plain and simple.
Perhaps you are being a bit black and white about this? It is always possible that other views than your own may reasonably exist. It happens to us all. Context too can be important: the taking of a wider view can alter perspectives substantially.
I have only mentioned one thing in connection with not being convinced, which is not what you imply.
 
Bill Kristol building 'war machine' to challenge Trump in 2020 primary

Conservative commentator and outspoken "Never Trump" critic Bill Kristol says he is building a "war machine" within the Republican party to challenge President Trump's 2020 reelection campaign, according to CNBC.

Kristol told the network that he's preparing "for a primary run against Trump," adding that Ohio Gov. John Kasich (R) is on his shortlist of possible candidates.

Kasich was unsuccessful in his 2016 bid for the Republican presidential nomination, only managing to beat Trump in his home state.
Lol, this war-mongering little cuckservative chucklehead/Trotskyite should run just so we can have a little more entertainment.
 
GOP candidate out after racist and homophobic blog becomes public


DENVER -- A GOP candidate for the State House is off the ballot after a controversial blog was revealed.

David Reid Ross, a Republican in HD 12 in Boulder County, admitted to FOX31 and Channel 2 he is the author of "The House of David" a blog with posts including:
  • "If you love black people, never, never let them vote"
  • "Homosexuality is a disease" and
  • "Islam is false and evil"
The blog was first revealed by Westword Magazine earlier this week.

Just another weird coincidence that seems to happen to Republicans so often.
 
California professor, writer of confidential Brett Kavanaugh letter, speaks out about her allegation of sexual assault

Potentially a problem for Kavanaugh here. The accuser has therapist's notes from 2012 about it, and she contacted the Post and Feinstein months before he was even nominated, so it's not some concocted last-minute story.

Kavanaugh's friend who she alleges was also there wrote a book where he describes himself as a drunk in his past, and how him and a friend he called "Bart O Kavanaugh" went on erratic escapades etc.

Not that the bulk of Republicans would care either way (they backed Moore and Trump after all), but Collins might be thinking twice.
 
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California professor, writer of confidential Brett Kavanaugh letter, speaks out about her allegation of sexual assault

Potentially a problem for Kavanaugh here. The accuser has therapist's notes from 2012 about it, and she contacted the Post and Feinstein months before he was even nominated, so it's not some concocted last-minute story.

Kavanaugh's friend who she alleges was also there wrote a book where he describes himself as a drunk in his past, and how him and a friend he called "Bart O Kavanaugh" went on erratic escapades etc.

Not that the bulk of Republicans would care either way (they backed Moore and Trump after all), but Collins might be thinking twice.

Flake is thinking twice, but, you know, Flake.

Grassley and Co knew something was out there *before* DiFi's letter. They knew she was out there and they knew she would be credible. They knew... They had GOP resources tracking down 65 women to support Kavanaugh *well* before the Feinstein's letter 'cos they needed to discredit Feinstein *and* Ford... But they panicked and fired their ready-to-go-testimonial salvo too quickly.

Mark Judge, who was at the party with Kavanaugh, had a channel with some, I'mma call 'em "racy", clips of women, and just as the Ford news was breaking, those clips were miraculously pulled from the internet... but the Internet doesn't sleep, so they've been caught out there too. Also, folk have Judge's yearbook... It's something else. He's is so burned as a character witness that he's useless to everyone.

Since Friday it's been about controlling the narrative. The GOP had it, but I think its safe to say that's gone now... They might still think they can Anita Hill this, but I think they're going to find out real quick that 1991 is *nothing* like 201#MeToo. This is going to spin out of control for Grassley and Kavanaugh.

If Brett is smart, he'll walk away right now...

... He won't of course, so he fully deserves the career-ending-financial-ruin-family-wrecking-train-crash heading his way.
 
Flake is thinking twice, but, you know, Flake.

Grassley and Co knew something was out there *before* DiFi's letter. They knew she was out there and they knew she would be credible. They knew... They had GOP resources tracking down 65 women to support Kavanaugh *well* before the Feinstein's letter 'cos they needed to discredit Feinstein *and* Ford... But they panicked and fired their ready-to-go-testimonial salvo too quickly.

Mark Judge, who was at the party with Kavanaugh, had a channel with some, I'mma call 'em "racy", clips of women, and just as the Ford news was breaking, those clips were miraculously pulled from the internet... but the Internet doesn't sleep, so they've been caught out there too. Also, folk have Judge's yearbook... It's something else. He's is so burned as a character witness that he's useless to everyone.

Since Friday it's been about controlling the narrative. The GOP had it, but I think its safe to say that's gone now... They might still think they can Anita Hill this, but I think they're going to find out real quick that 1991 is *nothing* like 201#MeToo. This is going to spin out of control for Grassley and Kavanaugh.

If Brett is smart, he'll walk away right now...

... He won't of course, so he fully deserves the career-ending-financial-ruin-family-wrecking-train-crash heading his way.

What's still awful in my view is how many of the men (and it's usually men) are outright saying it's actually fine if he did it, or at the very least it's not disqualifying. Just normal hijinks boys get up to. It's not coincidence that the only GOP senators people are realistically looking at blocking this when it goes to a vote are Collins or Murkowski. Gives you helpful insight into why they were (and are) defending Moore and Trump.

Also helpful to point out how they stepped on this rake needlessly. They can pull the nomination and just nominate another drone from the Federal Society's approved list. McConnell actually indicated to Trump that Kavanaugh might have some trouble with confirmation, given the mound of documentation that they're trying to hide, and also likely knew about this accusation. But Trump liked him, likely because he said nice things about him, and because he thinks presidents shouldn't be able to indicted, and that presidents should have more power.
 
What's still awful in my view is how many of the men (and it's usually men) are outright saying it's actually fine if he did it, or at the very least it's not disqualifying. Just normal hijinks boys get up to. It's not coincidence that the only GOP senators people are realistically looking at blocking this when it goes to a vote are Collins or Murkowski. Gives you helpful insight into why they were (and are) defending Moore and Trump.

Also helpful to point out how they stepped on this rake needlessly. They can pull the nomination and just nominate another drone from the Federal Society's approved list. McConnell actually indicated to Trump that Kavanaugh might have some trouble with confirmation, given the mound of documentation that they're trying to hide, and also likely knew about this accusation. But Trump liked him, likely because he said nice things about him, and because he thinks presidents shouldn't be able to indicted, and that presidents should have more power.

It's times like these where our friends on the right's 3D Chess assertions fall comically flat... There literally is no plan beyond the here-and-now for tre45on. Nothing at all.

PS. David Frume's just tweeted that but for 20,715 Alabamians, Roy Moore would be voting on Bret Kavanaugh's nomination to the Supreme Court.

Sobering ain't it?
 

As if anyone believed the lie that conservatives gave a **** about soldiers, or vets, or 9/11 responders, yet the evidence just keeps piling up.
 
The accuser has therapist's notes from 2012 about it
Notes can be concocted too ... it is way too easy and convenient to shout rape 30 years after the fact when there is zero chance that any physical evidence still exists, and with such perfect timing too.

Highly likely that the only thing it could ever possibly achieve is to find Kavanaugh guilty in the court of public opinion, almost as if that's the only goal ...

he fully deserves the career-ending-financial-ruin-family-wrecking-train-crash heading his way.
That's the spirit, destroy a man's career, family and reputation with not a shred of evidence. What a peach you are.
 
Notes can be concocted too ... it is way too easy and convenient to shout rape 30 years after the fact when there is zero chance that any physical evidence still exists, and with such perfect timing too.

Highly likely that the only thing it could ever possibly achieve is to find Kavanaugh guilty in the court of public opinion, almost as if that's the only goal ...


That's the spirit, destroy a man's career, family and reputation with not a shred of evidence. What a peach you are.

Of course there *is* proof that he’s a partisan hack who went after Clinton with 20 year old allegations remarkably similar to the one he’s facing now, lied to Congress under oath and was in possession of stolen Dem emails but, you know, whatever.
 
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