Vlok to be prosecuted

[Sneeky]

Merely suggested that a reason why many did not come forward was the fear of not being given a fair shake in the process. Seems as if the figures perhaps represent this?

Again, I don't care what happens to Vlok or the Pebco cops, if proof suggests they were less than forthcoming with information/evidence, means nothing to me. Said so in my post, and I understand the process tibby thanks for caring though.

 

[LottaFun]

20 000 murders x 13 anc years = 260 000 deaths. Why is the government wasting money on old news and not trying to save the next 20 000 that will be murdered this year. It is all about money for TRC members. Lots and lots of money will be payed to the TRC. They will travel the country and stay in the best hotels.

It's all business!

 

[xtermin8or]

20 000 murders x 13 anc years = 260 000 deaths. Why is the government wasting money on old news and not trying to save the next 20 000 that will be murdered this year. It is all about money for TRC members. Lots and lots of money will be payed to the TRC. They will travel the country and stay in the best hotels.

It's all business!

Huh what crap are you sprouting

 

[Sneeky]

Yes that is way off.

 

[kilo39]

Merely suggested that a reason why many did not come forward was the fear of not being given a fair shake in the process. Seems as if the figures perhaps represent this?

Again, I don't care what happens to Vlok or the Pebco, if proof suggests they were less than forthcoming with information/evidence, means nothing to me. Said so in my post, and I understand the process tibby thanks for caring though.

But you should care. If few are going to be prosecuted for the crimes of the many then 'we' hope that all sides are equally represented 'cause all sides are equally guilty.

(oh yes and what happened to the compensation? Um, nothing. As usual, rather squander the detail instead of delivering the real things!)

 

[Skeptik]

You are wasting your time stating facts with this lot.

Didn't Mbeki refuse to apply for amnesty?

 

[xtermin8or]

And if it is found that he committed a crime during the struggle, or perpetrated gross human rights violations he should be prosecuted

 

[marine1]

Yes I am sure that will happen.....Some people here are above the law

 

[xtermin8or]

Seeing that Mbeki spent most of his time during the struggle in Lusaka, before moving to England to study, and then the rest of the time in Europe, mainly in the shadow of O R Tambo, only returning to SA after the unbanning of the ANC, there is not too much he can be held accountable for in SA

 

[Jozi101]

Didn't Mbeki refuse to apply for amnesty?

Amnesty for what???

 

[kilo39]

Seeing that Mbeki spent most of his time during the struggle in Lusaka, before moving to England to study, and then the rest of the time in Europe, mainly in the shadow of O R Tambo, only returning to SA after the unbanning of the ANC, there is not too much he can be held accountable for in SA

Amnesty for what???

So anc and their cadres are guilty of nothing? Who made the decisions on necklacing? Who made the decisions on killings and bomb-making? Who made the decisions to turn the anc into a terrorist organization (in more than the word of the nats?)

Nevermind the 'atrocities' committed in the anc's own camps: I mean they are all innocent (they were oppressed.) I say bullsh#t: if you are going to try one, try all otherwise it is a farce and a parody of justice.

 

[Sneeky]

Bra Tony Yengeni is apparently implicated with a bunch of other ANC members in the murder of another ANC cadre, there was a doccy on TV 1 about it recently, justice on the case seems to have stalled, funny thing that
Will dig for more info later on it though.

 

[xtermin8or]

So anc and their cadres are guilty of nothing? Who made the decisions on necklacing? Who made the decisions on killings and bomb-making? Who made the decisions to turn the anc into a terrorist organization (in more than the word of the nats?)

Nevermind the 'atrocities' committed in the anc's own camps: I mean they are all innocent (they were oppressed.) I say bullsh#t: if you are going to try one, try all otherwise it is a farce and a parody of justice.

The National party ruled from the top down, so Vlok gave instructions

The ANC was run collectively, so orders to necklace impimpis for egs did not neccesarily come from the top

 

[kilo39]

The National party ruled from the top down, so Vlok gave instructions

The ANC was run collectively, so orders to necklace impimpis for egs did not neccesarily come from the top

Oh bullsh#t. Where were the statements from the anc top echelons (living in Lusaka or wherever) condemning necklacing. There were none therefore THEY are equally guilty.

 

[DigitalSoldier]

But atleast some one in the ANC should also tell the TRC what happened to the brother of Joe Seremane. AFAIK the ANC still dont want to let Seremane know what happened.

 

[xtermin8or]

They were a banned organisation operating underground, do you think they were going to issue public press statements

Most of the necklacing came from basic mob mentality, we both know that's how they happened.

As for the bombings etc. ( the few that there were )

The ANC took a decision to take up the armed struggle ( once again as a collective ) if you have to hold one person accountable, that would have to be Nelson Mandela, and only because he was the most outspoken about the armed struggle - he only done what the ANC told him to do - even when he was in prison and started talking to the Nats he went to great lengths to get consensus from the ANC before he said or committed himself to anything.

You see it might be difficult for you to understand the collective leadership nature of the ANC - but that is how it works -

 

[kilo39]

They were a banned organisation operating underground, do you think they were going to issue public press statements

Most of the necklacing came from basic mob mentality, we both know that's how they happened.

As for the bombings etc. ( the few that there were )

The ANC took a decision to take up the armed struggle ( once again as a collective ) if you have to hold one person accountable, that would have to be Nelson Mandela, and only because he was the most outspoken about the armed struggle - he only done what the ANC told him to do - even when he was in prison and started talking to the Nats he went to great lengths to get consensus from the ANC before he said or committed himself to anything.

You see it might be difficult for you to understand the collective leadership nature of the ANC - but that is how it works -

Oh bullsh#t. You cannot tell me the anc cadres on the ground were not organised. You cannot tell me that the endemic, systematic necklacing throughout the country went unnoticed and uncommented by the ANC collective. IE They are as guilty of war crimes as any other. CHARGE THEM or admit it is a farce!

 

[xtermin8or]

systematic necklacing - what crap are you talking - people were thought to be impimpis and the community necklaced them. Much of the times the SDU's led these rallies, and many of the members of the SDU's appeared at the TRC

If there are more ANC members and others ( as in the KZN violence ) who are guilty of crimes, then yes they must be prosecuted

If Mbeki or any other ANC leader ordered a killing and there is enough evidence they must be prosecuted, I have never disputed that.

In the same way those who were denied amnesty must be prosecuted.

Those who were denied amnesty either did not make a full disclosure or could not prove a political motive - If you could not prove a political motive then you are guilty of committing a crime and must be prosecuted - if you did not make full disclosure - you must at least make this disclosure to the NPA so that families of your victims can have closure -

 

[kilo39]

systematic necklacing - what crap are you talking - people were thought to be impimpis and the community necklaced them. Much of the times the SDU's led these rallies, and many of the members of the SDU's appeared at the TRC

With no condemnation or retraction by the anc collective. People is by definition plural. Necklacing around the country of PEOPLE is certainly endemic otherwise it would not be PEOPLE.

If there are more ANC members and others ( as in the KZN violence ) who are guilty of crimes, then yes they must be prosecuted

If Mbeki or any other ANC leader ordered a killing and there is enough evidence they must be prosecuted, I have never disputed that.

The country was at war: actions perpetrated in that war imply equal guilt by all sides (whether directly ordered mouth to ear) or tacitly approved by no condemnation. Where is the condemnation or the apology by the anc of crimes against its own people? Could it be amongst these 22 000?

About 22 000 ANC members who were involved in acts of violence had been released as part of negotiations before the TRC was set up.

In the same way those who were denied amnesty must be prosecuted.

Those who were denied amnesty either did not make a full disclosure or could not prove a political motive - If you could not prove a political motive then you are guilty of committing a crime and must be prosecuted - if you did not make full disclosure - you must at least make this disclosure to the NPA so that families of your victims can have closure -

So where is this list? Or is Vlok the only one on it?

 

[xtermin8or]

With no condemnation or retraction by the anc collective. People is by definition plural. Necklacing around the country of PEOPLE is certainly endemic otherwise it would not be PEOPLE.

I took issue with the use of systematic, endemic it might have been but it was certainly not systematic

The country was at war: actions perpetrated in that war imply equal guilt by all sides (whether directly ordered mouth to ear) or tacitly approved by no condemnation. Where is the condemnation or the apology by the anc of crimes against its own people? Could it be amongst these 22 000?

About 22 000 ANC members who were involved in acts of violence had been released as part of negotiations before the TRC was set up.

These were people who were convicted, were serving time, and were released as part of the negotiations - what is your point ?

So where is this list? Or is Vlok the only one on it?

Off course he is not the only one on it, I thought you had some intelligence and after debating this issue for so long you would have thought to at least check things out for yourself

The NPA intends looking at prosecuting those who were refused amnesty - there are more than 7 000 people on this list - people on both sides of the struggle - more could be added as more evidence comes to light through these prosecutions