Was Marx Right?

Are you "rolling on the floor laughing" because you are fat? Is that why you use a stupid 'fat vs thin' analogy?

:) Ad hominem . The analogy works. Fact people are fat irrespective of others.

Capitalism does not continue to escalate wealth ad infinitum without the working class being indebted, purchasing to have their higher standard of living- which capitalism has 'delivered' --well done capitalism...

Quite clearly you have no clue about the free market. Allow me to educate you on why Marxists and "Capitalist" (Which was a Marx term BTW), we prefer freedom lovers or some variation of freedom.

The subjective theory of value (or theory of subjective value) is an economic theory of value that identifies worth as being based on the wants and needs of the members of a society, as opposed to value being inherent to an object.

It holds that to possess value an object must be useful, with the extent of that value dependent upon the ability of an object to satisfy the wants of any given individual.

The subjective theory contrasts with intrinsic theories of value, such as the labor theory of value(Which was Marx's theory) which holds that the economic value of a thing is contingent upon how much labor was - necessarily - exerted in producing it - under the condition, however, that this "thing" has a use value.

In the context of a free market, several major conclusions follow from the theory. The subjective theory of value is a denial of intrinsic value. It leads to the conclusion that there is no proper price of a good or service other than the rate at which it trades in a free market.

Whereas the labor theory of value has been used to condemn profit as exploitation, the subjective theory of value rebuts that condemnation: a buyer in a free market who offers to pay a price lower than that which is commensurate with the amount of labor used to produce the good merely communicates information to the seller about the value the good might create for the buyer. (The price offered is not a measure of subjective value; it is just a means of communication between the buyer and the seller.) The offer is in one sense an expression of the buyer's opinion, which the seller is free to reject.

Indeed, the subjective theory of value supports the inference that all voluntary trade is mutually beneficial.

In conclusion for people like Ozzie. When trade is purely voluntary as in a free market. BOTH parties experience an increase in wealth. Thus the net effect is wealth increases.

As opposed to anything coercively taken in which one party experiences a gain, the other a loss. Since it is not quantifiable the next effect is unkown.

So the free market is not about zero-sum games. Obviously you didn't posses the capacity to understand my "stupid" analogy. Next time give a proper answer or I'll just insult you back, as I just did.

Some more excerpts from articles about economics and zero-sum games:

"To put it quite simply, economics is not a zero sum game. Economics, on its most basic level, is the study of the allocation of scarce resources. Adam Smith famously explained that in order for a transaction to take place, both parties must benefit. Therefore, it is true that in order to buy a stock, someone else must sell the stock. However, this is not a zero sum game because I value the stock more than the money I paid and the seller values the money more than the stock. We are each better off. This is a basic fundamental of economic theory."

"That's the extraordinary and marvelous thing about free trade in a global economy - it's not a zero-sum game. Nations party to free-trade agreements win, and the generated economic gains accrue across all sectors of the participating economies. As President Kennedy aptly observed about expanding economies, "A rising tide lifts all boats." In what has been the most dynamic era of economic development in human history, trade has become the basis for a prosperous world economy."

"In game theory, a zero sum game is one in which the gains of one are exactly balanced by the losses of another. In economics, a zero sum game is aptly described by the saying, “As the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.” Many assume that our “economic pie” is static, so that if some take more of the pie, there is less for others to share. But capitalism increases the size of the pie, and although some may get bigger pieces than others, all gain."

PS: Please try prove that value is objective. :) Since that is the only way to prove me wrong. Go ahead. I want to see it.
 
Last edited:
Some marxists quotes for you just so you have an idea of what type of guy he was. I know it is a bit of a fallacy attacking just some of his ideas, to discredit all of his ideas. But still, I think the insight is necessary.


PLEASE NOTE: THE BELOW ARE QUOTES OF MARX, ARE CERTAINLY NOT MY OPINION AND HAVE EXTREME RACIAL PREJUDICES. IF YOU ARE GOING TO TAKE OFFENCE. PLEASE DON'T READ. THIS IS NOT PROMOTING RACISM, QUITE THE OPPOSITE. I HOPE PEOPLE CAN BE MATURE ABOUT IT.


"The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope."
— Karl Marx

"Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. ... What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.. Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man -- and turns them into commodities. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general."
- Karl Marx, "On the Jewish Question", 1844.

"As for slavery, there is no need for me to speak of its bad aspects. The only thing requiring explanation is the good side of slavery. I do not mean indirect slavery, the slavery of proletariat; I mean direct slavery, the slavery of the Blacks in Surinam, in Brazil, in the southern regions of North America. Direct slavery is as much the pivot upon which our present-day industrialism turns as are machinery, credit, etc. Slavery is therefore an economic category of paramount importance."
- Karl Marx to Pavel Vasilyevich Annenkov, (Letter, 28 December 1846)

Marx was a racist and thus had no problems with those he deemed to be of a lessor race as slaves.

"...the very cannibalism of the counterrevolution will convince the nations that there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terrorism."
- Karl Marx, "The Victory of the Counter-Revolution in Vienna," Neue Rheinische Zeitung, 7 November 1848.

"Every provisional political set-up following a revolution requires a dictatorship, and an energetic dictatorship at that."
- Karl Marx, Neue Rheinische Zeitung 14. Sep. 1848

"We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror."
- Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels "Suppression of the Neue Rheinische Zeitung", Neue Rheinische Zeitung, May 19, 1849

"The workers... must try as much as ever possible to counteract all bourgeois attempts at appeasement, and compel the democrats to carry out their present terrorist phrases. They must act in such a manner that the revolutionary excitement does not collapse immediately after the victory. On the contrary, they must maintain it as long as possible. Far from opposing so-called excesses, such as sacrificing to popular revenge of hated individuals or public buildings to which hateful memories are attached, such deeds must not only be tolerated, but their direction must be taken in hand, for examples' sake. ...from the first moment of victory we must no longer direct our distrust against the beaten reactionary enemy, but against our former allies [the democratic forces], against the party who are now about to exploit the common victory for their own ends only. ... The arming of the whole proletariat with rifles, guns, and ammunition should be carried out at once [and] the workers must ... organize themselves into an independent guard, with their own chiefs and general staff, to put themselves under the order, not of the [new] Government, but of the revolutionary authorities set up by the workers. ... Destruction of the influence of bourgeois democracy over the workers ...[is a main point] which the proletariat, and therefore also the League, has to keep in eye during and after the coming upheaval. ...to be able effectively to oppose the petty bourgeois democracy. In order that [the democratic party] whose betrayal of the workers will begin with the first hour of victory, should be frustrated in its nefarious work, it is necessary to organize and arm the proletariat."
- Karl Marx "Address to the Communist League" March 1850, cited in E. Burns (ed): A Handbook of Marxism 1935, p.66-68.

The above kinda reminds me of Malema. Oh and apparently one of Floyd's heroes is Lenin. Whom only murdered millions...

"Society is undergoing a silent revolution, which must be submitted to, and which takes no more notice of the human existences it breaks down than an earthquake regards the houses it subverts. The classes and the races, too weak to master the new conditions of life, must give way."
- Karl Marx, "Forced Emigration", New York Tribune 1853:

The above is a quote advocating ethnic genocide.

"Those dogs of democrats and liberal riff-raff will see that we're the only chaps who haven't been stultified by the ghastly period of peace."
- Karl Marx to Friedrich Engels (Letter, 25 February 1859):

"...the Jewish ******, Lassalle... it is now completely clear to me that he, as is proved by his cranial formation and his hair, descends from the Negroes from Egypt, assuming that his mother or grandmother had not interbred with a ******. Now this union of Judaism and Germanism with a basic Negro substance must produce a peculiar product. The obtrusiveness of the fellow is also ******-like."
- Karl Marx to Friedrich Engels (Letter, July 1862), in reference to his socialist political competitor, Ferdinand Lassalle.

Lovely chap. The ***** is the "n" word. In case you don't follow.

"The redeeming feature of war is that it puts a nation to the test. As exposure to the atmosphere reduces all mummies to instant dissolution, so war passes supreme judgment upon social systems that have outlived their vitality."
- Karl Marx, "The Eastern Question" 24 Sept 1885

"Being in his quality as a ******, a degree nearer to the rest of the animal kingdom than the rest of us, he is undoubtedly the most appropriate representative of that district.
- Letter from Friedrich Engels to Karl Marx's daughter, Laura, speaking about her husband Paul Lafargue, April 1887, who ran for public office in a district holding the Paris Zoo. Engels felt license to write such filth to Laura (Marx) Lafargue, because Karl Marx himself had violently opposed her marriage to "a ******". Marx referenced Lafargue as "the little negro" or "the gorilla". Jenny Marx, the mother, wrote to Engels that she hoped her daughter would not have "ten little ****** boys". Apparently this kind of hard-racism ran in the Marx family, except for Laura Marx.

The ***** is the "n" word. In case you don't follow.

Don't be so quick to praise Marx. He was a eugenist who believed in the superiority of certain races and argued only certain races possesed the mental ability to be true socialists, and the rest should be killed. Murdered.

Lovely guy.
 
Last edited:
Debt caused the financial crises.

Too simplistic an explanation. Leveraging can be used for positive benefits. What caused people to take on so much debt? What allowed them to take on so much debt?
 
You need to understand that Marx can give a bunch of ideas but that's not going to change the mindset of the people who are at the top monopolizing everything.

Do you want to start a revolution? Join the ANCYL.
 
You need to understand that Marx can give a bunch of ideas but that's not going to change the mindset of the people who are at the top monopolizing everything.

Do you want to start a revolution? Join the ANCYL.

I perfectly understand, but the people I was trying to make headway with are some of the people on this forum and are not ANCYL members.
 
I think Marx was on the right track but ultimately wrong. I believe that we need to find ways of encouraging ethical capitalism and that sadly means better legislation for punishing directors and CEOs for fraud and mismanagement. If you destroy entire economies through blatantly corrupt practices you should be imprisoned foir life and not given billions of dollars to spend on more bonuses.
 
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X