Web Intact (Or intactless service)

[diebaas]

Wel, Its like this, I have a 31db Vertically Polarized Grid, (Wapadrand 2 is also vertical) long range multi client bridge (Senao) [200 mw], connected to a linksys router/bridge/AP/Switch....

Why are you going over the legal limit of 100mw now your causing interferance with other users why? o why?

Why would you want to know that? But I can tell you that it's going to be in the order of millions....

Was just wondering, also what are you going to do with the old equipment seeing should you change the equipment and we one day decide to cancel our service we wont be able to use it again where by on the 2.4ghz equipment we still can use to connect to a WUG network and meet new friends.

 

[Web Intact]

Wel, Its like this, I have a 31db Vertically Polarized Grid, (Wapadrand 2 is also vertical) long range multi client bridge (Senao) [200 mw], connected to a linksys router/bridge/AP/Switch.... I.O.W, it also has the dd-wrt firmware, the AP is used for a few PC's... the switch runs to another switch, the two switches run at 100mbits transmit & 100mbits receive, iow 200mbit (Which is a bit overkill), which in turn is connected to my PC...

So which is important to you, is the router, and bridge. I spoke to a my 'branch' again today, and the guy said he can see my signal at -77. Yet, every fourth or so packet, is a timeout. 'Web Instact', i'm hoping you can help me, or atleast give me something that I can use to atleast minimise the pppoe from disconnecting due to the timeouts.

Thanks bud

If your router is initiating the PPPoE, then make sure your firewall allows incoming ICMP (Ping). The PPPoE server on the tower checks periodically to see if the client is alive by ICMP, and will disconnect you if there is no response. The cyclic nature of your problem points to this as the cause.

 

[Web Intact]

Was just wondering, also what are you going to do with the old equipment seeing should you change the equipment and we one day decide to cancel our service we wont be able to use it again where by on the 2.4ghz equipment we still can use to connect to a WUG network and meet new friends.

Whatever equipment you get, you will be able to re-use... Either 2.5 WiFi or 2.5 WiMax...

 

[diebaas]

Whatever equipment you get, you will be able to re-use... Either 2.5 WiFi or 2.5 WiMax...

If you say so, seeing that you dont wanna tell us the exact cost of the rollover, just give us an indication how much your gonna spend to improve your service. 1million 2 million 3 million just give an estimate

 

[Web Intact]

a couple of hundred over the next few years

 

[kwaggawerner]

Why are you going over the legal limit of 100mw now your causing interferance with other users why? o why?


200mw is the ICASA specified limit, and thats not me saying it, it it the largest WLAN equipment supplier is RSA, which is Miro. [ http://www.miro.co.za/v2.1/alpha/uploads/Datasheet-SL2611CB3+Dx.pdf ]
and its not necessarily the milliwatt that is the power, but the devices decibel/transmit ability..... the bridge sits at 23dBm, and the Grid at 31dBm....

and the limit, is 500mw [http://ubnt.com/downloads/xr5datasheet.pdf (Although this device can put out up to 600mw)].... which was what they used to build a point to point link of over 188miles, thats about 304km! (just a little info byte)

For the B/G spectrum, its 200mw, and on top of that, I'm not using it as a WISP, nor a AP. Its strictly used for bridging, as the device name suggests....

As far as I was told, it only starts becoming illegal when you use boosters... 500mw, 1watt and up..... Because it also increases the noise in the sprectrum.... which will be a pain in the @rse for everyone...

I'm sure Web Intact has something to add here....

 

[kwaggawerner]

Web Intact, the SPI firewall on the router, filters Multicast & IDENT, and blocks Anonymous Internet Requests [AIR], could the AIR be ICMP?

 

[daffy]

Why are you going over the legal limit of 100mw now your causing interferance with other users why? o why?


200mw is the ICASA specified limit, and thats not me saying it, it it the largest WLAN equipment supplier is RSA, which is Miro. [ http://www.miro.co.za/v2.1/alpha/uploads/Datasheet-SL2611CB3+Dx.pdf ]
and its not necessarily the milliwatt that is the power, but the devices decibel/transmit ability..... the bridge sits at 23dBm, and the Grid at 31dBm....

and the limit, is 500mw [http://ubnt.com/downloads/xr5datasheet.pdf (Although this device can put out up to 600mw)].... which was what they used to build a point to point link of over 188miles, thats about 304km! (just a little info byte)

For the B/G spectrum, its 200mw, and on top of that, I'm not using it as a WISP, nor a AP. Its strictly used for bridging, as the device name suggests....

As far as I was told, it only starts becoming illegal when you use boosters... 500mw, 1watt and up..... Because it also increases the noise in the sprectrum.... which will be a pain in the @rse for everyone...

I'm sure Web Intact has something to add here....

No.
Its an EIRP Limit and its set to 20dbm in 2.4Ghz
EIRP = Radio power (dBm) + Gain (dBi) - Attenuation (cables + connectors)

So lets do a little maths with the figures that you've provided.

23dBm radio
31dBi Grid
Lets say you have 20 metres of LMR400 (I'm being generous here...) so thats about 4dBm of Attenuation in the cable, plus 3dB for the connectors, brings it to 7dB of loss
23 + 31 - 7 = 47dB

(And here's a link to a EIRP calculator if you doubt this http://www.e-zy.net/calculations/eirp/)

So 47dBm converted to mW is 50118.72mW
Thats over 50Watts. How is that not exceeding the 100mW (20dBm) Limit?
(dBm to mW calculator here http://www.e-zy.net/calculations/dbmw/)

ALBOKIADT is only too true.

 

[kwaggawerner]

No.
Its an EIRP Limit and its set to 20dbm in 2.4Ghz
EIRP = Radio power (dBm) + Gain (dBi) - Attenuation (cables + connectors)

So lets do a little maths with the figures that you've provided.

23dBm radio
31dBi Grid
Lets say you have 20 metres of LMR400 (I'm being generous here...) so thats about 4dBm of Attenuation in the cable, plus 3dB for the connectors, brings it to 7dB of loss
23 + 31 - 7 = 47dB

(And here's a link to a EIRP calculator if you doubt this http://www.e-zy.net/calculations/eirp/)

So 47dBm converted to mW is 50118.72mW
Thats over 50Watts. How is that not exceeding the 100mW (20dBm) Limit?
(dBm to mW calculator here http://www.e-zy.net/calculations/dbmw/)

ALBOKIADT is only too true.

Damn dude, I went to the same page were you went http://www.e-zy.net/calculations/dbmw/ and did the mW to dBm Convertion, so thats 200 mW = 23.01dBm, so there you might be right, with the grid @ 31dBm, and 1 meter LMR 400 @ 0.2dBm loss per meter.

You don't count everything up and work it back to mw transmit power!!!! It what book does is say it does??????

and phuck dude, the FCC & IEEE regulates 802.11 standards!!!! and in RSA its ICASA!

AND YOU ARE RIGHT! ALBOKIADT IN YOUR CASE

 

[kwaggawerner]

//// EVERYBODY HERE\\\\

I'm not here to challege everybody, and start fighting over who is right or wrong. I am more then willing to email you guys a copy of my CWNA (Certified Wireless Network Administrator) ebook. This will ensure that everybody here can use the book as a reference, its a must for everyone here.

I just want us all to be cooperative, & help each other as much as possible. Everyone, Including me, must stop with the flaming already!

 

[Ricard]

//// EVERYBODY HERE\\\\

I'm not here to challege everybody, and start fighting over who is right or wrong. I am more then willing to email you guys a copy of my CWNA (Certified Wireless Network Administrator) ebook. This will ensure that everybody here can use the book as a reference, its a must for everyone here.

I just want us all to be cooperative, & help each other as much as possible. Everyone, Including me, must stop with the flaming already!

I got a book an ebook from Microsoft... guess I am a professional!!

You do know that USA and EU laws regarding wireless are completely different. FCC is American! ETSI is European! SA follows European rules, not FCC

Think of all the cases of cancer that are caused by people using brute-force and ignorance.

/me heads off to rake in truck loads of cash. Sorry... You lost me as soon as you said you had a 'ebook'

FCC
Maximum Transmitter Power Output (TPO) is 1.0 watt or 30dBm

ETSI
Power Levels

In Europe at 2.4GHz we are limited by ETSI regulations to 20dbmW.

That is 20dB gain above 1mW or 100mW Effective radiated power compared to an isotropic (0 gain) aerial. This figure includes the gain from the aerial and losses from cabling.

 

[Trybble]

Daffy and Ricard are both right. 100mW (20dBm) EIRP is the legal limit in SA for wideband wireless LAN systems at 2.4Ghz (2400Mhz to 2483.5Mhz).

Calculating EIRP is done in the manner Daffy describes. dB values are added together (losses are negative dB values) and the result is either converted back to mW or left as dBm, depending on how the limit has been expressed. This only works this simply where an antenna gain figure (which has to include any pigtail) is expressed in dBi by the manufacturer. If it's given as dBd (dB relative to a dipole antenna) then you have to *add* 2.7dB to the antenna gain to convert it to dBi.

See http://www.hp.com/rnd/pdfs/antenna_tech_brief.pdf for an example, but I'm sure that using 'google' to search for "calculating EIRP" will give some good hits.

Adding dB = multipling mW. 20dBm = 100mW, 23dBm = 200mW.
3dB gain = double power, 6dB gain = 4x power.

...etc. Any radio tech knows this.

*Trybble

 

[diebaas]

200mw is the ICASA specified limit, and thats not me saying it, it it the largest WLAN equipment supplier is RSA, which is Miro. [ http://www.miro.co.za/v2.1/alpha/uploads/Datasheet-SL2611CB3+Dx.pdf ]
and its not necessarily the milliwatt that is the power, but the devices decibel/transmit ability..... the bridge sits at 23dBm, and the Grid at 31dBm....

and the limit, is 500mw [http://ubnt.com/downloads/xr5datasheet.pdf (Although this device can put out up to 600mw)].... which was what they used to build a point to point link of over 188miles, thats about 304km! (just a little info byte)

For the B/G spectrum, its 200mw, and on top of that, I'm not using it as a WISP, nor a AP. Its strictly used for bridging, as the device name suggests....

As far as I was told, it only starts becoming illegal when you use boosters... 500mw, 1watt and up..... Because it also increases the noise in the sprectrum.... which will be a pain in the @rse for everyone...

I'm sure Web Intact has something to add here....

Mense wat dink hul is smart is nie altyd so d#ners smart nie,

Thanks richard and daffy for the back up.

 

[Rocket-Boy]

Mense wat dink hul is smart is nie altyd so d#ners smart nie,

Thanks richard and daffy for the back up.

Im sure everyone on here is willing to back you up.

@kwaggawerner: Its pretty sad that you still argue with people who clearly know more about this than you do, they have practical experience and the courtesy to not cause interference in the 2.4-5 GHZ band. It seems to me that you are of the opinion that its fine for you to push up your noise levels because in your mind you are right and its fine to follow US wirless laws.

I do find it interesting that Web Intact were aware of you pushing up your signals and didnt say anything to you, does that mean that they are comfortable with their clients boosting outputs? Sureley being a WISP they are *very* up to date with regulations?

Thats my little rant. *calms down*

 

[diebaas]

Im sure everyone on here is wiwlling to back you up.

I do find it interesting that Web Intact were aware of you pushing up your signals and didnt say anything to you, does that mean that they are comfortable with their clients boosting outputs? Sureley being a WISP they are *very* up to date with regulations?

Thats my little rant. *calms down*

Mmmmmmmmm..................

 

[Ricard]

200mw is the ICASA specified limit, and thats not me saying it, it it the largest WLAN equipment supplier is RSA, which is Miro. [ http://www.miro.co.za/v2.1/alpha/uploads/Datasheet-SL2611CB3+Dx.pdf ]
and its not necessarily the milliwatt that is the power, but the devices decibel/transmit ability..... the bridge sits at 23dBm, and the Grid at 31dBm....

Sorry... missed this post.... have you seen the "Not for use in South Africa" writing on the Miro price list? Or did they take that writing off again.

I can buy amour piercing bullets from a dealer but that doesn't make them legal to use on a shooting range.

 

[diebaas]

Ricard just check your post because you quoted that i did make that post and it was certanly not me. Please correct it thanks

 

[kwaggawerner]

Alright people, I have spoken Miro support, and I believe I owe you all a apology, diebaas, richard, and everyone else, sorry.

The results are in. Yes, its not legal, BUT (YAY!) As long as I dont interfere with Telkom, Sentec, IBurst, and the rest, as well as the goverment channels, and other users, it ok, or atleast Kwasi-legal, I did a scan, and I found about 4 other AP's in the 10km link between me and the GWI tower, luckily, I'm quite a few channels away from them, andm GWI specifies the Channels, the bridge changes to whatever the tower is, so frequencies are not my problem. The reason for the massive output power on my side, is that I'm connecting on the side of a sector.... so therefore I have to make up with a lot of tx power, and a small MTU, in order to reduce packet loss.

Here's the good news for all of you, I'm switching over to Mikrotik at the end of the month, with a 100mw/200mw card, and the same grid. Here's the catch, GWI is licensing a few frequencies, and as I've said before the bridge connected to whatever channel the tower is on.

and, another thing, I'm quite hight above the rest of the people. I live on a mountain, and I was told, as long as I dont go connecting to private AP's, or APs I dont have authorization for, I should be in the clear.

 

[Rocket-Boy]

Alright people, I have spoken Miro support, and I believe I owe you all a apology, diebaas, richard, and everyone else, sorry.

The results are in. Yes, its not legal, BUT (YAY!) As long as I dont interfere with Telkom, Sentec, IBurst, and the rest, as well as the goverment channels, and other users, it ok, or atleast Kwasi-legal, I did a scan, and I found about 4 other AP's in the 10km link between me and the GWI tower, luckily, I'm quite a few channels away from them, andm GWI specifies the Channels, the bridge changes to whatever the tower is, so frequencies are not my problem. The reason for the massive output power on my side, is that I'm connecting on the side of a sector.... so therefore I have to make up with a lot of tx power, and a small MTU, in order to reduce packet loss.

Here's the good news for all of you, I'm switching over to Mikrotik at the end of the month, with a 100mw/200mw card, and the same grid. Here's the catch, GWI is licensing a few frequencies, and as I've said before the bridge connected to whatever channel the tower is on.

and, another thing, I'm quite hight above the rest of the people. I live on a mountain, and I was told, as long as I dont go connecting to private AP's, or APs I dont have authorization for, I should be in the clear.

Mikrotik is a good move, Im sure no one was wanting to personally attack you, its just a case of WISP's normally using huge amplifiers and making our lives difficult gets frustrating.

Well done for actually researching what the regulations are!

 

[Web Intact]

Mikrotik is a good move, Im sure no one was wanting to personally attack you, its just a case of WISP's normally using huge amplifiers and making our lives difficult gets frustrating.

Well done for actually researching what the regulations are!

I wouldn't say 'normally' using amps... just 'some' WISPS. We stick to the 17dBm output of the RADIO, but we do use 10dBi sectors... NEVER amplifiers. I do know some WISPs have started using the new XR2's and XR5's on point-to-multipoint devices, and it's killing our signal in some places.

Normally we don't mind high-gain antennas on CPE's, as long as they are grids. This keeps the signal focused on our antenna, and minimises the risk of interfrence to other devices. We do frown on high-power amps being used on CPE's though, and can often detect them and ban them outright when they start causing problems.

An interesting discussion here, and one we've been trying to get 100% clarification on for a while.
I started wondering about this all when I realised Telkom's wifi ADSL router exceeds ICASA's 20dBm EIRP limits...