What Amp

OverKill69 said:
Is that a second hand price?

If it's for a new one... then it's very not bad! hahahaha

Integra is normally 20% to 40% more expensive than Onkyo... and they're IDENTICAL besides the exterior look. Integra likes to separate the power amp from the processor... which is only REALLY worth it if you have ultra high end speakers running a balanced line setup already.

LOL! These two EVEN LOOK IDENTICAL!

http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DTR-40.2&class=Receiver&p=s
vs
http://www.uk.onkyo.com/en/products/tx-nr708-35565.html?tab=Details
Click to expand...

Exactly the same BUT. Integra is to be sold by installers and the price includes the installation. From what I've heard, you MUST have the installation done by the store where its bought or they cannot sell it to you.
 
MR.C said:
Exactly the same BUT. Integra is to be sold by installers and the price includes the installation. From what I've heard, you MUST have the installation done by the store where its bought or they cannot sell it to you.
Click to expand...

nope, landed up buying the integra for 10999 and we installed it our selves.
 
Mr Feesh said:
nope, landed up buying the integra for 10999 and we installed it our selves.
Click to expand...

Difficult hey?

hehehehe... I wouldn't trust a store techie to install a toaster let alone my sound equipment.
It's part of the fun.

I've also had to fix many installations of so called "Professionals" for my friends... I don't want to knock anyone... but I've yet to have a decent experience with a sound equipment installer.
Including...

Complete balls up wiring the multiple zones
connecting speakers out of phase
enabling "front wide" and "front high" speakers on the amp where there weren't any.
and in one case...
the techies replaced several meters of Monster Cable speaker wire (the THICK BiWire grey cable from hell) that was running in a conduit with normal flexi-chord.

Re the network port...

Run a cable... I had to make a plan here too...
What you really wanna do is be able to setup the iPad or iPhone app to control your amp over the wifi network. (I imagine the Onkyo app will work for the Integra)
Its very gimmicky... but it also is a lot of fun!
Makes you feel very star trek... it is very useful if you wanna change tracks or other functions from other rooms.
I can have my media server running on the network and I can change songs on my iPhone from the kitchen or outside.

Impresses the hell out of people... it's a real dingleberry... but its darn cool...


Oh yeah... I really meant SHORT CABLES... but that is included in the HDMI 1.4 std in any case. I have a 15m HDMI cable going to my projector... I had to have that specially made. (wasn't too expensive, but still a mission).
I can't justify paying R400 for a 1.8m long HDMI cable.
I still have my old Monster Cable RCAs and COAX cables... and I'll go as far as to say that there was a little bit of a difference when the signal was an analogue one which was subject to interference and resistivity of the cable... my sub (7m away) used to hum before I switched to a decently shielded coax...
But with the digital signals of HDMI, you simply do not get any sound or picture degradation using a HDMI 1.4 standard cable.
The dithering and sync loss... I have experienced... dithering due to a DAMAGED cable. Whole lines would flash from the center of the screen towards the left side of the display... I later found that one of the pins (it was a DVI to HDMI cable) was damaged.
I have noticed sync loss before too... usually from the "cheaper" components into my amp.
Namely, the HD PVR. if you run sound over HDMI you'll be surprised that the audio doesn't sync. See it for yourselves. I've even noticed it on other systems where "expensive" cable is used. I actually have reverted back to using optical sound from my HD PVR because of this.
I've also had a cheap SANSUI DVD player that I used to use to play DivX files off USB... that also would have sync issues... although they'd come and go.

To clear up what I meant about DSPs.
I might be using the wrong terminology here... if I did, I apologize.
I meant that connecting the SAME component via OPTICAL, COAX and even HDMI can sound different. solely due to the different DIGITAL processors that those different connections employ. I had a DVD player that had both a optical and COAX connection and tried both... they sounded COMPLETELY different! There was FAR more bass using COAX and it gave a warmer feel over all...
That's what I meant.
I also don't like PLII and Neo6 and the likes... I always stick to the original stereo... I see that those are what are called "DSPs".

I'm a big fan of Onkyo (and thus Integra).
They have excellent safeties, and they run at nominal power FOREVER... without giving issues. I've owned other amps in the past... Denons and Yamahas... the Yamaha used to actually start to crackle if you pushed it for long periods. The Denon I had wasn't bad... but the upgrade I wanted (moving to HDMI) was just STUPIDLY priced and once I used the Onkyo interface I was in love! It's sooooo much easier! Especially this new range with the "dumbed down" remote... that still manages to do EVERYTHING.
I still maintain that Onkyo is also the best quality to price amp that you could buy today... Even Yamahas have become BLOOMING expensive.

I know there are other amps out there... and maybe I am biased... but for a reason!
My Onkyo amp continues to provide endless hours of listening pleasure... PRISTINE quality and effortless use. I guess that's the main purpose of our sound equipment at the end of the day.
 
I still battle to understand the thinking of spending so much on the equipment and having the cheapest little strands connecting them. I just feel bad ...

I bought a CD player, speakers and DVD player for R50,000.00 a few years ago and linking everything with a R20.00 cable would drive me insane just by knowing
 
at the shop i bought the amp from, they specialise in home theaters but not sure how correct they are, they told me that technology hasnt changed nearly as much in the speakers and cables as the amps have changed. Got the B&W i600 series speakers with some decent cable so should be fine.
 
You cant go cheap on speaker cables... there... the signal is a very low voltage one which is definitely affected by the resistivity of the wire itself. The cables are rated with a "ohmage per meter" rating as well as the copper (or other fancy material) itself could alter the characteristic of the analogue signal. The cross sectional area and the individual strand width also play a role. There's also some mutterings about air spaces in between strands so they vacuum seal the cable too.

I've studied signal transfer at varsity so I can see the scientific application... with a low voltage DC analogue signal (with back emf), losses over distances are significant. interference is also a problem. So speaker cable is a different animal.

RCAs are in the same boat... however, the signal is more prone to interference than emf loss.

COAX cable is better... but the CABLE THICKNESS becomes important within the shielding... The inner copper core of the COAX cable is shielded from interference but will suffer from signal loss if the copper is not of a suitable cross sectional area and as well as individual strand thickness.

Light pipe or optical... here is where we change to some controversial science... Light is free from interference since we're in a completely different spectrum. but as was mentioned before, THE COMPONENTS THEMSELVES have more to play than the cable in most cases. There is argument over different light pipe materials and their relative refractory properties... however... these ARE SO SLIGHT according to the principle of optical fiber transmission. The biggest area where the light could be affected is at the transition zones. ie the plugs... but this has such a negligible affect on THE NATURE of the light signal itself. It will either WORK or it won't. The cables themselves are COMPLETE OVERKILL (no relation) to the limiting factors to attenuation and chromatic dispersion. The signals properties are minimal when looking at the design specifications of even the lowest quality optical cable.
Someone has already mentioned that the biggest problem with light pipe transmission is on the transmitting end. The actual LIGHT EMITTER takes a while to dim down to the "off" state once its been on (if you can imagine a light bulb's filament cooling down after its been turned off... a bulb takes about a second... its sorta the same with these light transmitters ONLY MUCH MUCH FASTER). so the issue is with THE COMPONENTS and not really with the quality of the cable.

Then we get to HDMI.
HDMI is a digital signal transferred down individual copper strands. within the thick cable, you have many smaller wires that are bundled together and each one is responsible for transferring a different signal. Now, the signal in each individual wire is dependent on the cross sectional area of the little wires and strands... but... and this is where I like HDMI... those thicknesses are governed by THE HDMI STANDARD. I'm not sure on the exact figures, but for a 1.8m cable to be rated 1.4a or whatever, it needs to have individual wire thickness of x millimeters... as well as shielding and individual insulation. That pretty much covers it! The connectors are also important because some cheaper ones "don't fit snug" and might break contact at individual nodes if they are poorly made.
The standard also changes according to the length of the cable... for example, a 10m HDMI cable needs individual wires to be thicker to still adhere to the 1.4 std.
AND... the 1.4 std is only given once the cable has passed the data transmission tests. So if you buy a cable rated at 1.4, no matter what it is... it is capable of transferring the digital signal within design parameters for the 1.4 HDMI standard. THE QUALITY OF COMPONENTS has more effect than the cable... that is the truth.
BUT... the one thing you need to be aware of is the other kind of cable quality. The connectors as I've mentioned, and the actual durability of the cable itself. So I recommend going middle of the road with HDMI. you don't want "just enough to get the job done" because those connectors are usually prone to slipping out (depends on the quality of components connector too)... and you don't want a cable that will get damaged if the maid steps on it.
So don't buy chinese... but there is no reason a expensive cable "is better" because it doesn't do anything different once you have attained the 1.4 Standard.

Is Monster Cable HDMI worth it? IMO no... Other much cheaper cables do the same business.
Is Monster Cable RCA worth it? ... if you have to use RCA... then yes... I have noticed a difference (especially in component video).
Is Monster Cable COAX worth it? ... It did sort out my sub buzz.
Is Monster Cable Speaker Cable worth it? ... I think so if your speakers are sensitive enough to warrant it.

I'm using Monster Cable as an example because their logo is "Hear the Monster Cable Difference" and there is so much internet debate surrounding this... and it usually involves monster cables.
You get many more cable manufacturers that claim they've got science on their side... and that's why they can charge THOUSANDS per meter, but I've studied signals and signal transmission for over 3 years BEING a sound enthusiast! So every new principle we learned I applied to my budding interest in sound and speakers.

The truth is: Once you reach a certain level in base cable quality... the gains fall away sharply as opposed to the MUCH HIGHER COST involved.

But, just like all things "Sound Related", we are all subjective in our own little ways. I'm loyal to a few brands not because of science... but because of life experience. And that might be a "feeling" or a "sensation" you have when hearing a good quality sound system as opposed to measurable certainty.

I'm rambling now... sorry...

/end emotional expression.

EDIT:

And to answer your question

Sound salesmen will say ANYTHING to get a sale. and they'll throw terms and figures at you to try and make you feel as if they know a hell of a lot more than you.
THE TRUTH ACCORDING TO OVERKILL.

SPEAKERS
Speakers haven't changed that much in the last few decades. The principle has never changed. You create an audible pressure wave that corresponds to recorded one. What has changed is that speaker manufacturers are getting closer and closer to the ideal... which is actually unattainable... which is perfect 100% replication of the source recording.
So they've messed with different materials in their drivers and they've made this and that more sensitive, but it really hasn't changed that drastically in years.

CABLES
see above explanation.
There have been some forays into alternate materials besides copper... some people are even using SOLID ROUND BAR to connect speakers... but the principle hasn't changed either.
You have to transmit a signal that is prone to interference and degradation... how do you do it efficiently... the cables themselves have changed very little... what has changed A LOT is the technology employed in the signals themselves and their transfer has resulted in new forms of signal as a result.
lets look at the production line for a second.

-guitar to guitar amp via midi cable. (what comes out the guitar amp is what is going to be our recording)
-guitar amp to (MIXING DESK AND MASTER BLACK BOX) via balanced line and then... out comes a recording. (that process and that technology hasn't changed for almost 40 years - just the final recorded media might have - they still use magnetic tape in most sound labs.)
-The CD or whatever is then played in a player of some kind (remove player quality from equation)
- we now have 5 different signal transmission options available to us (RCA, COAX, OPTICAL, HDMI, BALANCED LINE)

so yeah... the technology has changed in the SIGNAL TRANSMISSION department, but not really the cables themselves.


AMPLIFIERS

Oh Boy... here we've changed a LOT!
biggest leaps IMO have been.
Multichannel
Digital vs Analogue
SPDIF
CD
DVD
MP3
and now Blu Ray.

The technological leaps WITHIN each is scary.
Chips, processors and everything!
Just look at how fast even the most stalwart of Amp manufacturers now cycle their products! new ones come out every year promising newer and improved tech.


IN SUMMARY

Are YOU happy with your sound?
that's the most important thing...
 
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OverKill69 said:
You cant go cheap on speaker cables... there... the signal is a very low voltage one which is definitely affected by the resistivity of the wire itself. The cables are rated with a "ohmage per meter" rating as well as the copper (or other fancy material) itself could alter the characteristic of the analogue signal. The cross sectional area and the individual strand width also play a role. There's also some mutterings about air spaces in between strands so they vacuum seal the cable too.

I've studied signal transfer at varsity so I can see the scientific application... with a low voltage DC analogue signal (with back emf), losses over distances are significant. interference is also a problem. So speaker cable is a different animal.
Click to expand...

I disagree completely. In my opinion you CAN go cheap on speaker cable. :D

The resistance over a few meters of speaker cable is negligible - the voltage output of your amp is not very small, it is typically at least a few volts. The capacitance of the cable is also negligible at audio frequencies.
 
greg_SA said:
I disagree completely. In my opinion you CAN go cheap on speaker cable. :D

The resistance over a few meters of speaker cable is negligible - the voltage output of your amp is not very small, it is typically at least a few volts. The capacitance of the cable is also negligible at audio frequencies.
Click to expand...

whoa there buddy...

output is less than a volt in most cases and the resistivity at such low voltage plays quite a significant role if you have good speakers.
low potential difference means the "current" flow is not optimal.
Think of the EMF (Electromotive force) the coil needs to push a woofer cone in and out to produce a 20Hz sound? At volume?
a low voltage signal with that amount of current isn't transferred efficiently.
As opposed to a 220V current that is easily transported a few hundred meters on relatively thin wire.

There is definitely a base threshold of THICKNESS you don't want to go under and COPPER QUALITY.

as opposed to just price...

Well... okay... here is a grey area.
I have "cheap" cables... as in, I got them for a good deal.

But I'm not using flexi-chord either.

I guess it also depends on how sensitive your speakers are and so forth.
I wouldn't pay for name brand wire though... I've done too much maths for that... BUT... there is a minimum quality standard that I will not go under.

DO NOT BUY SPEAKER CABLE AT BUILDERS WAREHOUSE - TOO CHEAP
DO NOT BUY SPEAKER CABLE AT SOUND AND IMAGE - TOO EXPENSIVE

get the in-betweener... like 12mm high quality copper braid at R33 per meter ;-)
 
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OverKill69 said:
whoa there buddy...

output is less than a volt in most cases and the resistivity at such low voltage plays quite a significant role if you have good speakers.
low potential difference means the "current" flow is not optimal.
Think of the EMF (Electromotive force) the coil needs to push a woofer cone in and out to produce a 20Hz sound? At volume?
a low voltage signal with that amount of current isn't transferred efficiently.
As opposed to a 220V current that is easily transported a few hundred meters on relatively thin wire.

There is definitely a base threshold of THICKNESS you don't want to go under and COPPER QUALITY.

as opposed to just price...

Well... okay... here is a grey area.
I have "cheap" cables... as in, I got them for a good deal.

But I'm not using flexi-chord either.

I guess it also depends on how sensitive your speakers are and so forth.
I wouldn't pay for name brand wire though... I've done too much maths for that... BUT... there is a minimum quality standard that I will not go under.

DO NOT BUY SPEAKER CABLE AT BUILDERS WAREHOUSE - TOO CHEAP
DO NOT BUY SPEAKER CABLE AT SOUND AND IMAGE - TOO EXPENSIVE

get the in-betweener... like 12mm high quality copper braid at R33 per meter ;-)
Click to expand...

Haha... I think I misunderstood your previous post where you said "you can't go cheap"... I thought you were advising spending R100s on speaker cable, and advising name brand cables, etc. :wtf: But your suggestion of around R30/m is pretty much what I spent for my front 3 speakers :)

I'm not going to get into the technical details, as it is an endless discussion :) FYI, I'm an electronic engineer.

Of course the cable must not be too thin... but I believe that the thicker speaker cable sold at most hardware stores it totally fine.

I run my rear Monitor Audio RSFX speakers on medium size twin-flex from a hardware store (not the thinnest one), and it is totally fine.

When you say 12mm, I assume you mean the outer diameter of the cable, not the inner wire core? :)
 
greg_SA said:
When you say 12mm, I assume you mean the outer diameter of the cable, not the inner wire core? :)
Click to expand...

Nope... THE INNER CORE!!!!!

I found an electronics store up here in Jo'burg that sells everything!! Went there to find some banana plugs and found this roll of cable gathering dust.
I'll upload a photograph... I was blown away when I saw the thickness ;-)

I've got 200W B&W fronts and center, can run em Bi-wired from the single cable.
 
So each inner core is thicker than a pencil? That's really is overkill :) Are you planning on welding with you amp? :D
 
greg_SA said:
So each inner core is thicker than a pencil? That's really is overkill :) Are you planning on welding with you amp? :D
Click to expand...

DJ... said:
12mm inner core is absolutely preprosterous - even for event production sound. I guess you don't call yourself Overkill for nothing...
Click to expand...

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u309/OverKill6969/photo.jpg

You can see the Coax cables for the satellite decoder (foreground - so they look bigger than they are)
on the floor, you can see:

CaT5e cable
2x 18 gauge generic speaker cable going to my rears
and the cable for the front left.

Each side is basically 9 individual strands of normal 18 gauge wire. It was there... so I had to buy it!

As for welding... I do have a setting on my amp for WELD. Right under AUX 3 :D

In event production sound you usually run balanced line cables. They get THICK... but that's not the point.


The cable was available... it was inexpensive... it works beautifully!

And I have 80 meters left... :D
 
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The general rule of thumb for speaker wire is that the resistance should be less than 5% of the rated impedance of the speakers. Obviously this means that the longer the wires are, the thicker they need to be. The quality of the speaker wiring is also more critical on lower quality amps than higher quality ones. The good amps can accommodate better for problems with the wiring (Google for "damping factor" if curious)

It is not worth going too overboard on the cables. A foundation in the US that debunks superstitious myths (James Randi Educational Foundation) issued a challenge a few years ago for someone to demonstrate under double blind conditions that they could hear the difference between $7250 speaker cables and $80 cables. The prize for showing that you can hear the difference is one million dollars and is still unclaimed.
 
guys, i've been reading through the thread and it seems like you guys know alot :D i've got a Sony home theater system (the 6.2ch version, older model than currently at game, no HDMI) and i am going to replace the receiver with this one http://www.catsdigital.co.za/sony-str-dn610-7-1ch-dn-series-full-hd-receiver.html . the speaker-cable that came with the sound system is probably the most basic you can get, so obviously i want to replace them as well... for all the speakers... do you think this receiver is gonna be worth it and what speaker cable do you recommend?? im not an expert with these things, i just want the best audio quality for the budget i've got... :o

oja, i forgot to mention : i want to connect my TV, xbox and Blu-ray player to the amp. will it be best to use 3x HDMI cables (what version??) or is it gonna be best to use optical for one and HDMI for the other??? if so, which sould go where??
 
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