Where are all the skilled developers?

What really kills me is all these (bloody) agents contact you and give you a round about place where the job is. Asked an agent earlier this week where in Roodepoort the job is and the company name so I could say If i went for an interview there and she said sorry but that is confidential. When did the name of companies wanting to hire people become a huge CIA secret?
 
Hamster said:
They don't realise just how shallow [-]we are[/-] I am. If they don't list salary figures I give it a skip. No ways I'm going to waste my time with CV's and interviews etc. just to find out the pay is crap :/
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and when you ask they say the salary is based on experience like that helps any.
 
^^vampire^^ said:
What really kills me is all these (bloody) agents contact you and give you a round about place where the job is. Asked an agent earlier this week where in Roodepoort the job is and the company name so I could say If i went for an interview there and she said sorry but that is confidential. When did the name of companies wanting to hire people become a huge CIA secret?
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They are usually like that, they dont want you to be able to approach the client directly and cut them out of the middle. If you do that, they lose money.

I dont mind that, what I hate is the skills matrix. Normally completely pointless.
 
Ancalagon said:
I dont mind that, what I hate is the skills matrix. Normally completely pointless.
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+1 on the hate. Not sure if it is completely pointless (although, if you write a prac entry exam then it probably is)
 
Hamster said:
They don't realise just how shallow [-]we are[/-] I am. If they don't list salary figures I give it a skip. No ways I'm going to waste my time with CV's and interviews etc. just to find out the pay is crap :/
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Yup. I read "salary negotiable", "based on experience" or "competitive salary" as: "we intend to waste your time because we're hoping for a deal."
 
Ancalagon said:
I have never understood why they dont list salary figures - maybe it is is because they hope they can get you at a bargain. That is, if you are underpaid where you are, they just offer you 10% and you think its Christmas. Meanwhile, they might have been willing to pay someone up to 50% more than they gave you, but they dont want you to know that.
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Yup! Exactly that. Having worked both as an agency and corporate recruiter I can confirm this 95%

The other 5% is when a company really doesn't know what is "competitive"/"market related" and can't afford/doesn't want to pay for a salary survey of some sort.
 
Ejeckt said:
Yup! Exactly that. Having worked both as an agency and corporate recruiter I can confirm this 95%

The other 5% is when a company really doesn't know what is "competitive"/"market related" and can't afford/doesn't want to pay for a salary survey of some sort.
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These companies don't want skilled developers because don't want to pay the rates. There are employers a who have this attitude that "how hard can it be? And why should I pay these high rates. I would do it myself if had the time".

The market is saturated with developers with low experience and these are the devs that these employers tend to hook. And generally this is where the horror stories come from.

In all professions there are the fringe operators. IT is not immune. It seems that in some areas of IT, web dev, .net , it just seems there are more of them. I think it's because these technologies are the ones usually adopted by small startups. Areas like Unix, or large database setups tend to less susceptible, to this type of exploitation.
 
Sad reality is that despite some companies taking the 'easy' way out by employing junior devs who get paid peanuts, those guys seldom stick around. I have seen first hand what effect it has on small to medium sized companies. I totally understand the dislike of these agents who hound you for your CV and skills matrix only to find that the interview you attend is a complete waste of time.

From my own experience as a junior dev I have to say that the industry does not do much to help matters either. Many a time you get employed not to do much and sometimes get no exposure to certain aspects of the company. That aside, you also get cases where devs just want to milk the company for money by over selling themselves. At the end of the day nothing can substitute good experience, which is gained over time and is worth the money invested.
 
zippy said:
The market is saturated with developers with low experience and these are the devs that these employers tend to hook. And generally this is where the horror stories come from.
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I agree with you on that. But it will remain that way as long as companies don't bother working on skills development for its junior employees and see to it that they get the necessary exposure required. Without exposure and time to gain the experience, junior devs will move from job to job getting increases that are unwarranted.
 
aigle2am said:
I agree with you on that. But it will remain that way as long as companies don't bother working on skills development for its junior employees and see to it that they get the necessary exposure required. Without exposure and time to gain the experience, junior devs will move from job to job getting increases that are unwarranted.
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It's not going to change. And you are generalising. There are many companies who develop the skills of their devs. And if junior devs move from job to job, so what? They are getting experience. Goes with the territory. Don't like it, move to another industry. And if they are getting increases, then good for them.

:)

Sorry, but I think you are whining just a little. Fact is companies will pay you as little as possible and spend as little on resources as they can get away with. This why the training they will pay for is limited to the work you will do for them. They aren't there to do you any favours. You work for them, they give you money. And if they don't want you, they will pay you so low that you leave. It's not a conspiracy, it's an industry. And other industries are no different. There is only 1 person ultimately responsible for your training and that is you. As sh###ty as that seems, that's how it is, and it isn't going to change anytime soon. :)
 
I appreciate your honesty zippy. I assume when you mention I have learn thing myself you mean I have to do it at home? Or do you mean take initiative?
 
aigle2am said:
... I assume when you mention I have learn thing myself you mean I have to do it at home? Or do you mean take initiative?
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Yes to both, I would say. Work is where you work. Home is where you look after yourself, which includes relaxing and learning new skills.
 
How does one take initiative if your manager refuses to give you access to the required resources?
 
If your manager is like that, then it is probably time to learn something else.
 
aigle2am said:
I appreciate your honesty zippy. I assume when you mention I have learn thing myself you mean I have to do it at home? Or do you mean take initiative?
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There are companies that offer training. But only training that suits their needs. If your needs match their needs then you are luck. If not, yes, do it yourself.

I have the following :
1. Many moons ago I was an accountant. The company gave me interest free loans to pay for my accounting degree. I went on database programming course at Damelin. I paid for that myself.
2. Next job, I was working in project management and and requested a career change. They paid for all my Oracle training and I then worked as an Oracle developer for them. I took an interest in Java. I did a java course. I paid for that out of my own pocket.

You can see the pattern there. Companies will pay for the training where it directly benefits them and relates to the job you are doing for them. If you work for a company that doesn't even do that or at a minimum give you an interest free loan, then you need to think about whether you are at the right company. Unfortunately it isn't always possible to leave, so you just have to tough it out and bide your time. There are companies out there that will train their staff. You just have to find them. They don't come looking for you. In the meantime use your own initiative to improve your skills to make it easier to get the job at one if those companies.
 
aigle2am said:
How does one take initiative if your manager refuses to give you access to the required resources?
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What do you make of this statement zippy? Even more senior developers in the team have the same issue. I get the odd scraps thrown my way i.e. go google x,y and z for me and give me a solution.
 
aigle2am said:
What do you make of this statement zippy? Even more senior developers in the team have the same issue. I get the odd scraps thrown my way i.e. go google x,y and z for me and give me a solution.
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I forgot, how many years dev experience do you have again?
 
aigle2am said:
What do you make of this statement zippy? Even more senior developers in the team have the same issue. I get the odd scraps thrown my way i.e. go google x,y and z for me and give me a solution.
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I'm getting real tired of reading about this guy's whining and negativity. I've was developing under the title of technical support for the past year - 60% support, 40% dev, trying to get a junior dev position. You need to stop whining and get on with it. The industry isn't fair, you're lucky to even have a job. Some companies treat their juniors better than others. If you don't like this company, find another one. Move to JHB if you have to.

I started a new job as a junior dev two months ago doing full time dev for the first time, in a language that wasn't my first choice. I look for these so called scraps that I can help solve in the hope that I can learn about it and that I make a good impression. There's no mentor assigned to me but I have a friendly attitude towards asking the other devs for help and direction when I need it. They aren't always nice. Sometimes they are busy fixing urgent stuff, obviously if you ask during that time you're gonna get bad attitude for disturbing them. You wait till the time is right before you ask for help. And if you don't understand what's expected of you, ask again. And there is very little you can't find on Google. Remember that some of these guys started off as junior devs without the resource of the internet to help them.

Also, when you get home from work, instead of complaining about how bad your working life is, work on changing it. Many people here study part time after work. Some do it for a qualification and some do it just for their thirst for knowledge. Either way they brush up on their skills. That's exactly what you need to do. You'll be better in your current job and you'll be more employable as well so you can look at working for a company that will appreciate you more.
 
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