Where are all the skilled developers?

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roguemat

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I've been hearing from a lot of companies recently that they just can't find any good developers. They've got lots of positions open, but everyone they see is just useless.
So my question is, where have all the good coders gone? Do you all have jobs?

Or is it maybe because our education systems don't go far enough? I was shocked to be asked what JSON was from a 3'rd year IT student recently.
 
I think there are a few issues.

Education is a problem, you need to learn how to reason properly and a good maths and science background helps allot with this.
Educational institutions do mostly visual languages where almost all the course material can be done from a designer.

Companies dont really want to invest in the younger guys anymore as the turnaround is too quick, there seems to be no more loyalty.
Why would you invest R100000+ in someone for them to only leave within a year or less especially if you dont have a payback contract.

Demand is also quite high at the moment so anyone can be a programmer.

But expecting every student to know what JSON is is also a bit unreasonable.
If they were taught fundamentals in something like xml in the course material those skills will translate well to JSON and its up to the senior dev to decide on technologies and introduce those to the juniors.
 
Beachless said:
I think there are a few issues.

But expecting every student to know what JSON is is also a bit unreasonable.
If they were taught fundamentals in something like xml in the course material those skills will translate well to JSON and its up to the senior dev to decide on technologies and introduce those to the juniors.
Click to expand...

Is it really? When I was a student I spent my nights making crappy little apps - and in doing so you eventually need to use x or y service, and you're going to come across it at some point. Anyway, was just an example.
 
We're all sitting at home drinking coffee and coding any time we want :p

Well, at least I am..
 
Standards have certainly dropped. When you start getting CV's in for JEE developers beyond 700K and they could not code themselves out of a wet paper bag then you know. Most good developers I have come across are happy with their position and could not be lured away for any incentive. It's mostly the mediocre ones I stumble across. Latest hiring run (no limit on salary, provided that salary and skillset match) produced zero. You struggle finding developers who do front-end and back-end. The ones who say "I specialise in backend" are incapable of developing anything without syntax completion, Google and detailed design specifications.

All my new hires are now highly driven people with the right attitude (skill/experience is secondary, you can learn this is if you want to). If you have a nice enough work environment attrition is not a big problem. Some new staff are new entries into the job-market (post graduates) and others are in their 40's (BEE hit and guys get retrenched). People will occasionally move on but in most cases its not related to money or work.
 
roguemat said:
I've been hearing from a lot of companies recently that they just can't find any good developers. They've got lots of positions open, but everyone they see is just useless.
So my question is, where have all the good coders gone? Do you all have jobs?

Or is it maybe because our education systems don't go far enough? I was shocked to be asked what JSON was from a 3'rd year IT student recently.
Click to expand...

IMHO...

1) Salary. They want to pay little as possible but expect you to know everything inside out. You must know a-z , but don't want to pay at for the skills.
2) I had gone for interviews in the past (bec of restructing) , and they want a C# dev. Passed 2 test that took hours. 3rd test (with the last interview).. "your job will be a SQL developer, writing sql reports etc". I was WTF... you said C# etc.. not SQL dev.
3) Just because they look for someone with specific skill (example .net remoting) and the candidate doesn't have it (but has all others) then the candidate gets rated "not skilled enough"

But agreed. Companies don't invest in people anymore too.

You get mediocre devs too. That is why I hate the "drag/drop" books... because someone reads the books, does a course and now they are a "senior" developer.

edit x2: And all these compatibility Test etc companies want to do these days. So you pass all technical questions etc.. but you "fail" their compatibility test.. creates a "demand".
 
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roguemat said:
I've been hearing from a lot of companies recently that they just can't find any good developers. They've got lots of positions open, but everyone they see is just useless.
So my question is, where have all the good coders gone? Do you all have jobs?

Or is it maybe because our education systems don't go far enough? I was shocked to be asked what JSON was from a 3'rd year IT student recently.
Click to expand...

It is one of the problems we face.
The reality is that there have never been that many good programmers in SA.
The level of developers in SA is just not as high as they are in the USA.
 
AlphaJohn said:
Working for foreign companies....

/duck

Local ones can not compete with the pay.
Click to expand...

Controversial, but very true. Obviously many good guys still stay, but here is what I have observed: About 75% of my CS honours class work overseas now (and mostly the best 75% at that). The number is similar for the year before. Similar numbers are evident for the MSc and PhD grads. Pay is certainly a big factor, but a major driver is that a lot of the interesting work out there is being done by overseas companies (thankfully Amazon has stemmed the flow a little). There are also all the standard life style, crime, future for your kids in SA concerns too, but for techies, especially youngish ones, the technology and pay is really the big pull overseas.
 
Because SA companies deal primarily with recruiters who put out generic specs out that all look the same.
Why don't you post those companies on this site. No they won't do that. Only use recruiters.

Post on a dating site with no photo and listed Joburg with the ad saying "my client is looking for attractive female must be able to work on own and in a group". Will you expect quality candidates from that?
 
roguemat said:
Is it really? When I was a student I spent my nights making crappy little apps - and in doing so you eventually need to use x or y service, and you're going to come across it at some point. Anyway, was just an example.
Click to expand...

My point is that no one knows everything and you are bound to find people that dont know about certain technologies.
That does not make them a bad candidate especially if you asked them about other forms of serialization and interchange and they were competent in those.
But I'm getting off topic now...
 
roguemat said:
I've been hearing from a lot of companies recently that they just can't find any good developers. They've got lots of positions open, but everyone they see is just useless.
So my question is, where have all the good coders gone? Do you all have jobs?

Or is it maybe because our education systems don't go far enough? I was shocked to be asked what JSON was from a 3'rd year IT student recently.
Click to expand...

Another question..

Define good dev... ?

A dev who just writes perfect code? Thinks outside the box etc? Does work of dev, BA , SQL dba etc? What do they see as good?
 
JStrike said:
It is one of the problems we face.
The reality is that there have never been that many good programmers in SA.
The level of developers in SA is just not as high as they are in the USA.
Click to expand...

I think thats down to specialization, in SA you are often expected to do everything including wash the bosses car.
 
Beachless said:
I think thats down to specialization, in SA you are often expected to do everything including wash the bosses car.
Click to expand...

Exactly.. in USA.. you get UI dev, Middle Tier dev and DBA to do app. Specs are done. Here you must do everything.. and wash the car/dog/cat.
 
This is why I believe in probation periods for new hires

I may not know everything there is to know but give me the time to learn the specifics of what a company can do and I'll show you I have the ability to learn.

Investing in graduates or students is not as risky and costly (from both a financial and administrative pov) as investing in people with degrees already.
 
nfbs said:
Because SA companies deal primarily with recruiters who put out generic specs out that all look the same.
Why don't you post those companies on this site. No they won't do that. Only use recruiters.
Click to expand...

Haha, recruiters are my pet peeve... Mostly they just serve to piss me off by sending me "IT Technician" types specs because my cv and their spec have one word in common. Usually accompanied by a whole lot of paperwork which involves duplicating your cv and a skill matrix into their specific format.
 
TelkomUseless said:
IMHO...

1) Salary. They want to pay little as possible but expect you to know everything inside out. You must know a-z , but don't want to pay at for the skills.
2) I had gone for interviews in the past (bec of restructing) , and they want a C# dev. Passed 2 test that took hours. 3rd test (with the last interview).. "your job will be a SQL developer, writing sql reports etc". I was WTF... you said C# etc.. not SQL dev.
3) Just because they look for someone with specific skill (example .net remoting) and the candidate doesn't have it (but has all others) then the candidate gets rated "not skilled enough"

But agreed. Companies don't invest in people anymore too.

You get mediocre devs too. That is why I hate the "drag/drop" books... because someone reads the books, does a course and now they are a "senior" developer.

edit x2: And all these compatibility Test etc companies want to do these days. So you pass all technical questions etc.. but you "fail" their compatibility test.. creates a "demand".
Click to expand...
The people I have spoken to just want a bunch of good developers, no salary cap or specific titles were mentioned - so no I don't think it always comes down to salary.

TelkomUseless said:
Another question..

Define good dev... ?

A dev who just writes perfect code? Thinks outside the box etc? Does work of dev, BA , SQL dba etc? What do they see as good?
Click to expand...
No, noone writes perfect code (what is perfect code?). For me, I think that a "good dev" would be defined as 50% knowing alot(?) about what they are applying for, and 50% passion for said thing.

Beachless said:
I think thats down to specialization, in SA you are often expected to do everything including wash the bosses car.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I guess this is true. But I'm more talking senior positions where you are hired for a specific task
 
roguemat said:
The people I have spoken to just want a bunch of good developers, no salary cap or specific titles were mentioned - so no I don't think it always comes down to salary.


No, noone writes perfect code (what is perfect code?). For me, I think that a "good dev" would be defined as 50% knowing alot(?) about what they are applying for, and 50% passion for said thing.
Click to expand...

I was kidding about the "perfect" code :D. But yea I see a good dev same as you. Nobody will know everything , attitude is a big factor. But I have seen companies that the candidate must fit their profile 100% to be "accepted".

But each company has so many different requirements is crazy sometimes.

Edit: To give you an idea. 4-5 years ago I went for interview. Was online test.. holy moly. The questions I got there was freaking insane. Microsoft Message Queuing questions etc.. stuff I never saw in my life (was internal workings of MSQ etc) . Stopped after the 4 th question bec I knew this was stupid.

Saw that same company go on tv and say "We don't have any good developers in SA". I was yea.. because your 1st interview test will eliminate 99.9% of all candidates. Wasn't a test to test your knowlegde about dev...
Since then I took a pinch of salt if companies say they can't find good devs.
 
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