Which would you pick?

[Lupus]

Shame man. I know you can do better, keep trying.
Its like saying I know a heavy smoker that is 92, so smoking is not bad for you.

PS Yes I genuinely know someone that is 92 and smokes more than 2 packets a day.

How are quite a few cheap cars still on the road the equivalent of this?

 

[Jean Claude Vaaldamme]

How are quite a few cheap cars still on the road the equivalent of this?

Geez if you can't figure that out there is no hope.
Let me give you another one.
My land Rover did not have an oil leak.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Yes it is common sense that an older car will need repairs.
The fact that you get 15+ year old German cars for sale everywhere and not much of these cheap brands, tells you all you need to know about reliability which you claim is a fallacy

The fallacy is thinking German cars are long term reliable.

Not that they exist.

You won’t find any Chinese cars older than 2012 because that’s when they started selling here.

But there’s plenty of them with hundreds of thousands of kilometres on the clock and still in great condition.

 

[airborne]

Chinese aside, the notion that German cars are more reliable long term is an objectively logical fallacy.

We KNOW they **** the bed at higher mileage and cost a fortune to repair which is why nobody wants to touch them without a motorplan.

VW, Audi and Mercedes are at the bottom of the JD Power lists year after year and BWM right in the middle and that doesn’t even look at long term when they **** cam chains, gearboxes, driveshafts and entire engines.

BMW is fairly reasonable with out of the box ownership and as long as that motor plan is there to cover your ass.

But soon as you put real mileage on things start costing serious money.

Which comes back to the point if they cost you double in the first place why frown on the Chinese for anything but your own image?

Which is why you see people constantly upgrading from one 320 to the next because they don’t ever want to risk having to pay for anything out of pocket.

@Pax please educate this chap.

 

[airborne]

The fallacy is thinking German cars are long term reliable.

That stopped being the case around 3 or 4 decades ago.

There was a time when a German vehicle meant very well engineered and high quality that would last an eternity, now it just means luxury driver aids and "refinements" taken to a ridiculous level to the point where the apple cart can easily fall over and will cost an arm and a leg to right. And great engineering choices like plastic water pump impellers, plastic parts replacing critical metal parts in many parts of the engine bay. Swirly intake flaps that disintegrate and grenade engines..
There are still some outliers that are more reliable than others but as a whole German vehicle long term reliability is a thing of the past.

And even those drivetrains from which you can genuinely eke out long term reliability still requires an enthusiast doing the maintenance or else they are not really financially feasible.

 

[SauRoNZA]

That stopped being the case around 3 or 4 decades ago.

There was a time when a German vehicle meant very well engineered and high quality that would last an eternity, now it just means luxury driver aids and "refinements" taken to a ridiculous level to the point where the apple cart can easily falls over and will cost an arm and a leg to right. And great engineering choices like plastic water pump impellers, plastic parts replacing critical metal parts in many parts of the engine bay. Swirly intake flaps that disintegrate and grenade engines..
There are still some outliers that are more reliable than others but as a whole German vehicle long term reliability is a thing of the past.

And even those drivetrains from which you can genuinely eke out long term reliability still requires an enthusiast doing the maintenance or else they are not really financially feasible.

Exactly, it’s based on nostalgia and days gone by with blinkers on to the current state of the market in the last say 20 years when things started going pear shaped all over the show.

Like you say there are some safe bets in between, but it takes research and dedication to find them but the brands as a whole and saying all things German is uber alles is simply not true any more.

Quite likely for the very fact they aren’t built in Germany any more end to end and a lot of everything is outsourced.

 

[Lupus]

That stopped being the case around 3 or 4 decades ago.

There was a time when a German vehicle meant very well engineered and high quality that would last an eternity, now it just means luxury driver aids and "refinements" taken to a ridiculous level to the point where the apple cart can easily falls over and will cost an arm and a leg to right. And great engineering choices like plastic water pump impellers, plastic parts replacing critical metal parts in many parts of the engine bay. Swirly intake flaps that disintegrate and grenade engines..
There are still some outliers that are more reliable than others but as a whole German vehicle long term reliability is a thing of the past.

And even those drivetrains from which you can genuinely eke out long term reliability still requires an enthusiast doing the maintenance or else they are not really financially feasible.

Yeah but that's the era Jean Claude is stuck in, cause he also doesn't seem to realise that French cars haven't really been much of an issue for the last 20 or so years. Often higher on reliability indexes than the German cars.

 

[Lupus]

Exactly, it’s based on nostalgia and days gone by with blinkers on to the current state of the market in the last say 20 years when things started going pear shaped all over the show.

Like you say there are some safe bets in between, but it takes research and dedication to find them but the brands as a whole and saying all things German is uber alles is simply not true any more.

Quite likely for the very fact they aren’t built in Germany any more end to end and a lot of everything is outsourced.

He's stuck in the past. Hasn't moved on

 

[Pax]

@Pax please educate this chap.

I already heard in my army days, and later experienced in life, some people are untrainable. No amount of evidence or effort will make them see the light. Just ignore is all one can do.

 

[Jean Claude Vaaldamme]

Yeah but that's the era Jean Claude is stuck in, cause he also doesn't seem to realise that French cars haven't really been much of an issue for the last 20 or so years. Often higher on reliability indexes than the German cars.

LOL I never said there is a problem with French cars.
Buying a French car in SA is a problem, cost and time to get parts.
Funny how you write "haven't really been much of an issue"

 

[Jean Claude Vaaldamme]

He's stuck in the past. Hasn't moved on

More one liners without much substance.

Life is pretty simple. If you have above average IQ with some common sense.

This is the same as the Woolworths cake prices.
Woolworths cakes is not even close to the same ballpark as Spar or Checkers cakes.
People complaining about Woolworths prices, mean they want it but cant afford it. Thus its better.
Woolworths wont sell those expensive cakes if nobody buys them.

Give us facts, give us common sense, not your little one liners.

Why are the German brands that are more expensive in the top selling brands worldwide and not all these other cars?
Stop talking BS and explain it to us.
Are people stupid paying more for them or are they better quality?

People complain about DSTV prices because they want it, and the cheap alternatives does not offer the same quality.

Life is pretty simple............ for some of us

 

[airborne]

I already heard in my army days, and later experienced in life, some people are untrainable. No amount of evidence or effort will make them see the light. Just ignore is all one can do.

True you are pretty much untrainable, even more so considering it's a clear and shut case that German cars despite being great to drive and very luxurious can quite easily bankrupt you once they leave motorplan due to how unreliable and poorly designed they are.

It's not even a South African phenomenon, it's an internationally recognised fact that most luxury German cars are a royal pita once out of motorplan, like timing chains that barely last 100k km and require the whole engine to be removed to replace them, the list goes on and on.

 

[Pax]

True you are pretty much untrainable, even more so considering it's a clear and shut case that German cars despite being great to drive and very luxurious can quite easily bankrupt you once they leave motorplan due to how unreliable and poorly designed they are.

It's not even a South African phenomenon, it's an internationally recognised fact that most luxury German cars are a royal pita once out of motorplan, like timing chains that barely last 100k km and require the whole engine to be removed to replace them, the list goes on and on.

Maybe the cars I own and owned were defective. None exhibited the traits you ascribe. None cost a lot to maintain either. Dunno, maybe people whose 'knowledge' originate in the grapevine and not from experience know best.

I won't waste my time in trying those to see the light.

 

[ToxicBunny]

More one liners without much substance.

Life is pretty simple. If you have above average IQ with some common sense.

This is the same as the Woolworths cake prices.
Woolworths cakes is not even close to the same ballpark as Spar or Checkers cakes.
People complaining about Woolworths prices, mean they want it but cant afford it. Thus its better.
Woolworths wont sell those expensive cakes if nobody buys them.

Give us facts, give us common sense, not your little one liners.

Why are the German brands that are more expensive in the top selling brands worldwide and not all these other cars?
Stop talking BS and explain it to us.
Are people stupid paying more for them or are they better quality?

People complain about DSTV prices because they want it, and the cheap alternatives does not offer the same quality.

Life is pretty simple............ for some of us

So you don't think you're paying more for a brand name but actually paying more for actual quality relative to the price increase?

Really?

 

[airborne]

Maybe the cars I own and owned were defective. None exhibited the traits you ascribe. None cost a lot to maintain either. Dunno, maybe people whose 'knowledge' originate in the grapevine and not from experience know best.

I won't waste my time in trying those to see the light.

It’s easy to make up whatever bs suits your narrative or believe that your tiny sample size represents the entire story but the facts don't lie that German luxury vehicles are renowned for being expensive to maintain and often unreliable. It’s not hard to understand why, they try cram every conceivable bs driver aid and gadget into them and at the same time cut costs with under engineered parts, a recipe for disaster when it comes to longevity.

That being said I recall you are an ardent audiophile so you are well versed in drinking your own koolaid so no surprises with your current stance on vehicles.

 

[Düber]

That stopped being the case around 3 or 4 decades ago.

There was a time when a German vehicle meant very well engineered and high quality that would last an eternity, now it just means luxury driver aids and "refinements" taken to a ridiculous level to the point where the apple cart can easily fall over and will cost an arm and a leg to right. And great engineering choices like plastic water pump impellers, plastic parts replacing critical metal parts in many parts of the engine bay. Swirly intake flaps that disintegrate and grenade engines..
There are still some outliers that are more reliable than others but as a whole German vehicle long term reliability is a thing of the past.

And even those drivetrains from which you can genuinely eke out long term reliability still requires an enthusiast doing the maintenance or else they are not really financially feasible.

This is so true.
Cost cutting, chasing fast assembly times and trying to achieve the lowest fuel consumption figures are some of the culprits. I used to be a Merc guy through and through but I won't touch a new one with a long pole now.

My wife's Chery has over 300k on the clock with zero ***t, just properly done, regular maintenance.

 

[Speedster]

My wife's Chery has over 300k on the clock with zero ***t, just properly done, regular maintenance.

This can't be possible. Cherys (and all Chinese cars) are meant to blow up when the odometer hits 100 000km. /s

 

[Jan van Riebeeckstad]

This is so true.
Cost cutting, chasing fast assembly times and trying to achieve the lowest fuel consumption figures are some of the culprits. I used to be a Merc guy through and through but I won't touch a new one with a long pole now.

My wife's Chery has over 300k on the clock with zero ***t, just properly done, regular maintenance.

You're supposed to turn the odometer backwards not forward.

 

[FiestaST]

Been following this thread closely & some of the "advice" given here....fork me

Some of us like real world examples not just conjecture or stories from someone's brother's uncle's nephew's dog.

I have been following "Car Guy", a proper CC Car Youtuber, for ages.

Back in late August 2025 he picked up a new to him 2015 A3 1.4 TFSI S-Line Sedan, super neat from a reputable place:

1 Hour ago he posted & showed a (non clickbait) vid of said 2015 A3 with under 80k kilos on the clock that schiit the bed. DSG won't allow it to drive, shock face. Flatbed truck ensures.

Watch the vid & note the error message then take your DSG knowledge & then you know most likely answer what is wrong.

Back in 2018 I made this thread, something I witnessed:

Thread 'Reliability of the BMW N47 (diesel engine)'

May 17, 2018

Simple one.

What is the reliability of N47 2L Diesel engine?

Reason I ask is that I found out the engine seized on my cousin's F20 120d, the pre-f/lift (Angry Birds shape). Mostly likely 2012 MY. 135kw & 380nm. 2nd owner car.

This after the car hit 110 000km. He is not a boy racer & mentioned no warning lights or any indication it would just give up the ghost.

Car was out of Motorplan & BMW SA charged him R7k just to look at the engine.

In the end he did the maths & sold it as is for R70k. Repair cost would have been R70k I was told. New engine all inclusive would have been over...

• FiestaST
• Replies: 11
• Forum: Motoring and Transportation: Cars, Bikes and Plane

Will not spell out the point here.

 

[SauRoNZA]

More one liners without much substance.

Life is pretty simple. If you have above average IQ with some common sense.

This is the same as the Woolworths cake prices.
Woolworths cakes is not even close to the same ballpark as Spar or Checkers cakes.
People complaining about Woolworths prices, mean they want it but cant afford it. Thus its better.
Woolworths wont sell those expensive cakes if nobody buys them.

Give us facts, give us common sense, not your little one liners.

Why are the German brands that are more expensive in the top selling brands worldwide and not all these other cars?
Stop talking BS and explain it to us.
Are people stupid paying more for them or are they better quality?

People complain about DSTV prices because they want it, and the cheap alternatives does not offer the same quality.

Life is pretty simple............ for some of us

Erm…

Top 50 Best Selling Cars Worldwide (2025)
1. Tesla Model Y – USA
2. Toyota RAV4 – Japan
3. Toyota Corolla – Japan
4. Ford F-Series – USA
5. Honda CR-V – Japan
6. Chevrolet Silverado – USA
7. Toyota Camry – Japan
8. Hyundai Tucson – South Korea
9. Toyota Hilux – Japan
10. Kia Sportage – South Korea
11. Tesla Model 3 – USA
12. Ram Pickup – USA
13. BYD Song Plus (Seal U) – China
14. Geely Xingyuan – China
15. Volkswagen Tiguan – Germany
16. Honda Civic – Japan
17. GMC Sierra – USA
18. BYD Qin Plus – China
19. Toyota Corolla Cross – Japan
20. Nissan Rogue / X-Trail – Japan
21. Dacia Sandero – Romania
22. BYD Seagull (Dolphin Mini) – China
23. Hyundai Elantra – South Korea
24. Volkswagen Golf – Germany
25. Honda Accord – Japan
26. Mazda CX-5 – Japan
27. Wuling Hongguang Mini EV – China
28. Subaru Forester – Japan
29. Ford Ranger – USA
30. Toyota Yaris – Japan
31. Jeep Grand Cherokee – USA
32. Renault Clio – France
33. Nissan Sentra – Japan
34. Kia Seltos – South Korea
35. BMW X3 – Germany
36. Toyota Tacoma – Japan
37. Chevrolet Equinox – USA
38. Volkswagen Polo – Germany
39. BYD Han – China
40. Mercedes-Benz GLC – Germany
41. Subaru Crosstrek – Japan
42. Hyundai Kona – South Korea
43. Ford Explorer – USA
44. Audi Q5 – Germany
45. Peugeot 208 – France
46. Nissan Qashqai – Japan
47. Changan CS75 – China
48. Toyota Highlander – Japan
49. Skoda Octavia – Czech Republic
50. Suzuki Swift – Japan

A whopping 7 are German.