White Domination

High/eenah said:
SuperMonkey said:
Blacks in the US have more education than the US whites, much more than our whites, our whites have an IQ of 94, while there blacks have an average IQ of 85.

They are certainly not easy to 'equalize' and even if it was, two points lower IQ in society has a huge impact on society and the economy.

Reply to supermonkey
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As races go Europeans have an average IQ of 100. (Orientals are higher) the black African's average is 60 (the lowest of any race)

One can qualify for the disabled olympics if you have an IQ lower than 75.

To me this explains everything about why this continent is in the state it is in.
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This is what he meant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

I see that tests can be unfair, but questions which are relevant in the US, UK are relevant in an internationally competitive economy like South Africa.
If you don't get 100 points in a standard test then you should not think of yourself as management material.
Aptitude tests are written where I work before a person is promoted. Only whites went to get tested for free during business hours before the recent promotion (we represent less than 1/2 the workforce) and one of us got promoted.
In my opinion, aptitude and work ethic explains the imbalance.

If my answer is not politically correct, don't start a forum which asks to explain a politically incorrect question. Banning the user above is not fair, he has a valid point, not everyone agrees with it, but there is truth and research in it, just like AA, some truth and research, allot of bs.

Something interesting I just saw, English South Africans, (I'm assuming they are white), are smarter than Afrikaners according to the article.
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Last edited:
OneGin said:
You're using one stereotype to criticize another.

You didn't quote the whole story about Katz and why she took that approach. But then let's not let it spoil the point of view you are pushing.

Here's some you left out (and we can see why) from Katz:
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So what was it ? was the person not hired because of lazy, incompetence, or that she was so good that she would be headhunted ?

here's some more that you left out

However, recruitment executives told City Press Business that job- hopping was not a black issue.

"There is a shortage of black talent for reasons to do with this country's history. Also, very many skilled black people are shunned by the labour market while those that get in are never made to feel welcome.

"They are alienated by the office culture. If people are not happy they are going to leave," said a human resources practitioner who did not want to be named.

Richard Pike, chief executive of JSE-listed recruitment company Adcorp, said job-hopping was not a race issue. "It's a seller's market out there and those with skills will continue to move," adding that constant job-hopping was a concern.

"The problem is no more acute now than it was five years ago."
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Abe, the fact that more whites are being recruited and promoted means that the required percentages will never be reached
 
xtermin8or said:
So what was it ? was the person not hired because of lazy, incompetence, or that she was so good that she would be headhunted ?

here's some more that you left out

Abe, the fact that more whites are being recruited and promoted means that the required percentages will never be reached
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I have not seen this in our company. In fact, the CEO made it clear that no whites will be employed, only AA candidates will be accepted. 50% of people have left of course, but he got his BEE brownie points.
 
Nod said:
I have not seen this in our company. In fact, the CEO made it clear that no whites will be employed, only AA candidates will be accepted. 50% of people have left of course, but he got his BEE brownie points.
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At what cost of human capital?
 
xtermin8or said:
Abe, the fact that more whites are being recruited and promoted means that the required percentages will never be reached
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That is impossible. In order for the percentage of white people at top management to decrease (between 2003 and 2007), there must have been less white people promoted then black people. Had that not been the case, then the percentage would not have dropped. While you may not like the facts, you cannot just brush them aside when you feel like it.
 
alloytoo said:
At what cost of human capital?
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Huge. We averaged at 20 people a month leaving. Lost a lot of good people. HR actually gave AA people 12% increases and white people 6%. AA candidates (1 year experience) are paid more than their managers (15+ years experience). Pisses a lot of people off and moral is at a all time low. But we get contracts, just sorry that we don't have experienced people to do the work.
 
Abe said:
While you may not like the facts, you cannot just brush them aside when you feel like it.
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You obviously haven't dealt with xtermin8or before. "Facts" are nothing more or less than what he wants them to be.
 
"We owe it to the next generation to resolve these issues. They don't carry the baggage we do. Race should thus no longer be the decisive factor when applying for a job; it should rather be which person has the right skills."
 
vxv said:
"We owe it to the next generation to resolve these issues. They don't carry the baggage we do. Race should thus no longer be the decisive factor when applying for a job; it should rather be which person has the right skills."
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That will never happen. The ANC uses race at every opportunity because it keeps them in power. By raising the race spectre at every opportunity, they keep race in the minds of their supporter base. This results in a situation where ANC supporters would rather abstain then vote for someone else when they are happy with the present government.
 
Abe said:
That will never happen. The ANC uses race at every opportunity because it keeps them in power. By raising the race spectre at every opportunity, they keep race in the minds of their supporter base. This results in a situation where ANC supporters would rather abstain then vote for someone else when they are happy with the present government.
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If everyone retracts their international funding in African political agenda, well have to fend for ourselves. Then the true architects and actual contributors get the exposure needed. We Africans are spoilt and we need to start working for our sustainability no matter what race.
 
Abe said:
That is impossible. In order for the percentage of white people at top management to decrease (between 2003 and 2007), there must have been less white people promoted then black people. Had that not been the case, then the percentage would not have dropped. While you may not like the facts, you cannot just brush them aside when you feel like it.
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Not neccesarily, the decrease may be attributed to resignations, even death, or maybe job-hopping, the FACTS show that a significantly larger number of whites have been promoted into management levels than blacks
 
Nod said:
Huge. We averaged at 20 people a month leaving. Lost a lot of good people. HR actually gave AA people 12% increases and white people 6%. AA candidates (1 year experience) are paid more than their managers (15+ years experience). Pisses a lot of people off and moral is at a all time low. But we get contracts, just sorry that we don't have experienced people to do the work.
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At some point companies get a reputation, and it just becomes imposible to acquire decent skills.
 
xtermin8or said:
Not neccesarily, the decrease may be attributed to resignations, even death, or maybe job-hopping, the FACTS show that a significantly larger number of whites have been promoted into management levels than blacks
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xtermin8or wants rocket scientists sweeping streets, and street sweepers building rockets? What solution are you suggesting exactly? ^_^
 
xtermin8or said:
Not neccesarily, the decrease may be attributed to resignations, even death, or maybe job-hopping, the FACTS show that a significantly larger number of whites have been promoted into management levels than blacks
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Ok, there is something really wrong with your maths. Maybe it was not your strong point in school so let me give you an example:

Lets assume we have 1000 positions in top management. Based on the percentages given earlier in this thread we have something like:

Whites in top management 732 (2003)
Whites in top management 682 (2007)

So there would be 50 less whites in top management.

It does not matter whether the whites were fed to the fishes. Those 50 positions are now filled with people of colour so there must have been at least 50 more black placements in top management then white placements. There is no explanation other then that more black people have been hired then white people.

An remote possibility could be that more white people are being placed in the same positions more often (job-hopping), but that should not be an issue as the overall trend is still down. In that particular case, a position could be filled by 2 or 3 white people over time but that should not be counted as 2 or 3 placements but 1 placement as the end result is the same.
 
Just for the record, the number of employed people (in thousands) in SA:

Black African 8680 (2001) -> 9362 (2007)
White 2075 (2001) -> 2042 (2007)

That means that the number of whites employed in SA dropped by 33000 and the number of blacks employed increased by 680000. You need to remember that managers and professionals need higher skills and experience that will take some time to filter through. It's worse because the government have not invested anything in education. While the top management figures have not yet reached the same levels, people who are normally in these positions are typically 55+ and have years of experience in large organisations. You can legislate until you are blue in the face and the only thing you will succeed in going is to breed contempt. Short of firing all of the white managers, there is nothing that can be done as a short term solution.

Don't let me stop you, just remember, you will end up chasing away the people that you need. The ones who leave first are those who are most qualified because it's easier for them to find employment overseas. South Africa needs to compete in a global market and the best way to do that is by retaining the best people. Over time, black people will make up a larger and larger proportion of those people but that is not the case right now.
 
Abe said:
Ok, there is something really wrong with your maths. Maybe it was not your strong point in school so let me give you an example:

Lets assume we have 1000 positions in top management. Based on the percentages given earlier in this thread we have something like:

Whites in top management 732 (2003)
Whites in top management 682 (2007)

So there would be 50 less whites in top management.

It does not matter whether the whites were fed to the fishes. Those 50 positions are now filled with people of colour so there must have been at least 50 more black placements in top management then white placements. There is no explanation other then that more black people have been hired then white people.

An remote possibility could be that more white people are being placed in the same positions more often (job-hopping), but that should not be an issue as the overall trend is still down. In that particular case, a position could be filled by 2 or 3 white people over time but that should not be counted as 2 or 3 placements but 1 placement as the end result is the same.
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you can count, hip hip hooray, but maths does not equal logic, or indeed comprehension, the report shows quite clearly that there has been a marginal increase in the number of blacks and indians in managerial positions ( strangely coloureds do not have the same marginal improvements ) the fact as it stands is that there is still a domination of white males in these levels, and because of the meteoric rise of white women to management, it is clear that this is due to racist or stereotypical thinking.

I have pointed you in the direction of studies showing that there are skills available, experts pointing out the same thing, and the figures available, but I fear I will not be able to persuade you as cognitive dissonance will prevent you from seeing the truth.
 
xtermin8or said:
you can count, hip hip hooray, but maths does not equal logic, or indeed comprehension, the report shows quite clearly that there has been a marginal increase in the number of blacks and indians in managerial positions ( strangely coloureds do not have the same marginal improvements ) the fact as it stands is that there is still a domination of white males in these levels, and because of the meteoric rise of white women to management, it is clear that this is due to racist or stereotypical thinking.
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Let's look at what you said:

"Abe, the fact that more whites are being recruited and promoted means that the required percentages will never be reached"

Firstly, I was disputing your so called "fact" from above.

Your assumption that the meteoric rise of white woman is due to "racist or stereotypical thinking" is again, just your conclusion (unsubstantiated I might add). It's far more likely that these women have more experience then the majority of black people which would account for a preference for them in the positions.

I have pointed you in the direction of studies showing that there are skills available, experts pointing out the same thing, and the figures available, but I fear I will not be able to persuade you as cognitive dissonance will prevent you from seeing the truth.
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You have shown no such study proving anything of the sort. The studies shown are either incomplete or do not provide the necessary detail for such a determination. Show me a study that says that there is a surplus of black doctors or IT specialists. The conclusion of an unreleased study is meaningless without detail to back up it's claims.
 
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