They already have calluses from hurting students. That wouldn’t bother them. Student’s just get in the way of really important stuff like wasting/stealing money and playing politics.
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White Girls Only
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They already have calluses from hurting students. That wouldn’t bother them. Student’s just get in the way of really important stuff like wasting/stealing money and playing politics.
Bizkit87
Executive Member
whats good for the goose......
As long as they don't exclude non-black members from their ranks there is nothing wrong with those institutions existing or attempting to advance the case of black people in South Africa.
Admittedly, the BJ Forum tried to exclude non-blacks from one of their meetings, but with a name like that no-one's likely to take them seriously anyway...
porchrat
Honorary Master
Doesn't matter. If their reason for wanting to change this is that it is discriminatory because it prevents certain race-groups or genders from attaining the award then they need to adopt this attitude with ALL awards, not just this one.
Besides it is still private money, not the university's money and it should be spent according to the wishes of the owner, not the wishes of the university.
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That doesn't make sense. It would be like me asking the Salvation Army to provide my dinner.
Look. I'll explain with diagrams. B=black and W=white:
pre 1994:
-->B
--------------------------------->W
Post-1994 (desired)
--------------------------------->B
--------------------------------->W
Post-1994 (actual)
---------->B
----------------------------------------->W
Who needs help? B or W?
If you're good enough, you'll get bursaries no matter what colour you are. Stop whinging that kids in townships are getting a leg up and you're not. Sheesh...
Oh please. Are you really saying that most of the educational grants these days go to white students? Funny nearly all of the grants/bursaries that I read up on while in university only catered for black students. Guess they must have been lying hey?
Yes, black students need more help than white students. My point is that they are already getting more help, but proportionately it is still not enough. Does that make it okay to appropriate some old dead white man's money for your own ends? No, it doesnt. It should cause the same uproar as deciding to seize all of the assets of Nelson Mandela and use them for education against his will. Doesnt matter who the person was or what their beliefs were, that money is PRIVATE, and even 60 years after his death, he has the final say. No one else.
I am Penguin
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aBOVE ARE ALL A LOT OF bs. yOU ARE DEFINITELY NOT TALKING FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE. (dAMN cAPS!)
So let those with the real experience relate ...... nobody knows better than the disadvantaged students! Kids in the townships are getting a leg up for sure..thats their problem... but then there are kids that made a success of school yet end up before close doors because of waiting lists and unfair discrimination for tertiary education , thats a fact.
Uh, no. How did you reach that conclusion?
I got one. And I'm not only white, I'm English!
No, it doesn't.
But you aren't complaining about that - you're complaining that disadvantaged people are getting assistance while advantaged people aren't, and trying to use racism as the justification.
I don't think they are justified in trying to change it.
I said they could leave it as it is and give it to somebody else to carry out instead.
As an institution, the university shouldn't be make impromtu moral decisions but should rather refer to approved policies.
porchrat
Honorary Master
I honestly don't see how you can make this comparison. It is more like a private company saying "we will only provide research money for cancer because of the following reasons..." and then the recipients of that money replying "no, more people die of HIV in this country so we want to legally change the contract so that we can use the money for HIV research instead".
I'm not whinging about that at all. I have plenty of awards and I know that I received those despite my race and gender. All I'm saying is that you can't moan that this award needs to be racially/gender inclusive while many other awards are still racially/gender exclusive. Either allow gender/race exclusive awards or don't but don't pick on this one award in particular.
This is a private person's desire. Regardless of whether or not the university agrees with it is largely irrelevant.
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porchrat
Honorary Master
and I agree with you. What I'm actually saying is I don't even see how the university has a leg to stand on with it's argument in the first place. It is either against discrimination in all forms or it isn't. It can't be both.
I am Penguin
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How do you make that assumption? Thus you think just because a person are white they are advantaged already, so in your eyes there are NO disadvantaged whites???? Who knows maybe you are right. Therefore the need of the ANC to remove all prospects for white kids to promote themselves and succeed and only cater for blacks as you want to have it. Therefor the AA/BB/anti white laws and discrimination are required to level the play-field with the hope of at least one of the many blacks outperform the few whites so the situation can improve in the future. What a laugh.
porchrat
Honorary Master
So am I. Actually I got 5 but this is largely irrelevant. This isn't about us personally this is about the principle. The principle that this man had a will. This will is a legal contract. You can't just go and alter the thing and change who receives these awards. How do we know what his reasons were for choosing those particular groups to receive the award?I got one. And I'm not only white, I'm English!
If we start doing this then in the future people just won't leave money to these institutions because they are too worried that their money will be used for purposes and in ways that they didn't want.
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This is your graph, isnt it?
Post-1994 (actual)
---------->B
----------------------------------------->W
Which is bigger - white bar or black bar?
I got one. And I'm not only white, I'm English!
So did I. My point is that all other things being equal, I would have got more if I wasnt white.
I want you to read the following sentence and tell me what you think it means:
Yes, black students need more help than white students. My point is that they are already getting more help, but proportionately it is still not enough.
To me, the meaning is fairly clear. Black students are getting help. They need even more help (meaning financial assistance).
I dont get it, suddenly that makes me racist, saying that black students deserve more help.
So what?
There is only so much money to go around. A bursary is there to help balance things out for people who - for whatever reason - are not in a position that would allow them to fully develop their talents.
Most people in this country who fall into that category are black. For obvious reasons. Those who receive bursaries are often getting them because they are a) black AND b) potentially valuable citizens. They have shown promise and receiving support in order to develop that promise further. The assumption is that white folks, after how many decades of preferential treatment, are not as needy of support as black folks. (And you know this.)
There is nothing wrong with this assumption.
UKZN took that idea and ran too far with it. That is all. But there is nothing wrong with the idea.
It's not fair that race is being used as a determining factor in who receives educational support. But neither was it fair that race used to be a determining factor in who receives education at all. There are different forms of discrimination and some are justified and some are not. (And you know this.)
I'm sorry you thought I was calling you a racist. Amazingly, it is possible to have a discussion involving racism without accusing you of racism...
Abe
Expert Member
This is all dangerous ground. There are a lot of these sorts of things targeted at certain groups. Some based on religious denomination, others on sex and even on country of birth. The only one that some people seem to have a problem with is one that is targeted towards white people.
battletoad
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grayston said:
If thats the case, explain to the coloured dude who's virtually carrying the class while still on track for a summa cum laude why he was overlooked for NRF funding, although he's ahead of the next best student by 15%
unskinnybob
Expert Member
Julius must nationalize the trust!
I am Penguin
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So what?
There is only so much money to go around. A bursary is there to help balance things out for people who - for whatever reason - are not in a position that would allow them to fully develop their talents.
Most people in this country who fall into that category are black. For obvious reasons. Those who receive bursaries are often getting them because they are a) black AND b) potentially valuable citizens. They have shown promise and receiving support in order to develop that promise further. The assumption is that white folks, after how many decades of preferential treatment, are not as needy of support as black folks. (And you know this.)
There is nothing wrong with this assumption.
UKZN took that idea and ran too far with it. That is all. But there is nothing wrong with the idea.
It's not fair that race is being used as a determining factor in who receives educational support. But neither was it fair that race used to be a determining factor in who receives education at all. There are different forms of discrimination and some are justified and some are not. (And you know this.)
I'm sorry you thought I was calling you a racist. Amazingly, it is possible to have a discussion involving racism without accusing you of racism...
So it's ok to "fix" the wrongs of the past with equally wrong "solutions" in future, thus degrading and disadvantaging a whole young generation of a race that had nothing to do with the wrongs of the past. All based on their skin color and race and not on their performance and/or needs. What are they afraid off, Whites are such a small sector of the population that it is not necessary to block them at all levels from competing?
If that were the case race would not need to come into it. Nor would your religion or sex.