White people should remember SA's past.

[Vio]

Frankly I don't care about the past, if they where unhappy with their education and stood up good for them. Do they have PHD's today? I wonder, I guess this is the same people you mentioned... Sure there are the exceptions I'll give you that (Don't want too generalize too much now).

My point is the past has no bearing what so-ever in the future. The future is what is around us now, and as far as I can see we have a violent crime rate so high it makes Iraq look like a holiday resort.

My point is simple these fools must stop living in the bloody past and work for their future, but unfortunately like bb_mat said Africans blame everyone and everything but themselves for their shit situation. Responsibility and accountability is non-existent, an environment ripe for corruption and that would be our nice #2 problem in this nation, #1 being crime. #3 I'd say is our super restrictive labour enviroment with a billion rules and laws so you cannot fire someone that’s doing a shit job and doesn't pull his wait or doesn't know how to do the job he was hired for(laff).

You want to blame apartheid for criminals now? A criminal is a criminal end of story, throw them in a hole lock the gate and throw away the keys. We don’t need criminals in this country uneducated or not.

 

[Vio]

Sorry Xarog, lost your point, really confusing!

He seems to want to say that children should remember how their parents rampaged or something because they where getting cr@p education.

We'll I think they have remembered just the other day they vandalized/burned their schools.

I mean WTF thats criminal behavior and should be discouraged above all else.

 

[JStrike]

Vio : Ah, the days when most gov resources were still spent on white people and in white areas. Before they started distributing it more evenly. Yup, the good ol' days

 

[Vio]

Vio : Ah, the days when most gov resources were still spent on white people and in white areas. Before they started distributing it more evenly. Yup, the good ol' days

Whatever man, atleast the place was clean and people could eat. These days unless you in a high tech job or a manager of sorts you got almost no hope in this country and guess what that means most ppl got no hope.

You know I used to be quite "libral" about these things but the crime in the last two months have completely shown me what this country is. A nation of criminals, no sole no patriotism and no future.

 

[Xarog]

Frankly I don't care about the past,

Then you're doomed to repeat it's mistakes.

if they where unhappy with their education and stood up good for them. Do they have PHD's today?

No, then never had the opportunity a real education affords a person. Proper changes to the education system only happened later.

My point is the past has no bearing what so-ever in the future. The future is what is around us now, and as far as I can see we have a violent crime rate so high it makes Iraq look like a holiday resort.

The past created the present, the present creates the future. You're deluding yourself if you think the past doesn't affect us all.

My point is simple these fools must stop living in the bloody past and work for their future, but unfortunately like bb_mat said Africans blame everyone and everything but themselves for their **** situation.

So it's your opinion that if everyone in the country got a quality education, we'd be stuck with the same proportion of unemployment for unskilled labourers? Adults who never got a proper education have good reason to be sour about the way they were treated.

Responsibility and accountability is non-existent, an environment ripe for corruption and that would be our nice

You mean like refusing to accept responsibility for the govt we voted in which treated a certain section of the population unfairly?

You want to blame apartheid for criminals now? A criminal is a criminal end of story, throw them in a hole lock the gate and throw away the keys. We don’t need criminals in this country uneducated or not.

No, I want to say that if these criminals had received a proper education, they probably would have had other choices to consider. It stands to reason that some of them would rather work than steal - and that would mean a lower crime-rate. We have 40% unemployment in this country. It's madness to think that's not a contributing factor to our crime rates. And our unemployment rate HAS been affected by post educational policies.

He seems to want to say that children should remember how their parents rampaged or something because they where getting cr@p education.

Yes. I don't neccessarily support how they reacted to the situation, but it's clear that they should have done something to change what was going on.

I mean WTF thats criminal behavior and should be discouraged above all else.

Is it not criminal for a government to arbitrarily deny certain people the rights they're entitled to, based on arbitrary differences? Is it not criminal for a government to deny it's citizens knoweledge?

 

[pupa]

Vio : Ah, the days when most gov resources were still spent on white people and in white areas. Before they started distributing it more evenly. Yup, the good ol' days

Talk to many of the oppressed of the time and see what they say! Distributing evenly, is that what the GVT and the ANC and everybody does, Joke everybody is for himself, where is the distribution! to the back pocket YES!

 

[Vio]

The past created the present, the present creates the future. You're deluding yourself if you think the past doesn't affect us all.

That is the thinking of someone that lives in the past. Sure you must bare the circumstances created by the past, but thats no reason to harp on about it on and on.

So it's your opinion that if everyone in the country got a quality education, we'd be stuck with the same proportion of unemployment for unskilled labourers? Adults who never got a proper education have good reason to be sour about the way they were treated.

I don't understand what you mean, your comment doesn't make sense in context of what I ment. I'll repeat: People must stop moaning about how bad apartheid was and live for their future instead. Why is it that a small handfull can move on create businesses and make a success from nothing yet theres milions still begging for handouts? You understand what I mean? I mean they must plan their futures instead of just expecting it to fall out of the sky.

You mean like refusing to accept responsibility for the govt we voted in which treated a certain section of the population unfairly?

I benefited, but I did not vote them into power hence I am not accountable.

No, I want to say that if these criminals had received a proper education, they probably would have had other choices to consider.

Fair comment but that argument is based on the assumption that problem with crime we have now is because of lack of education primarily. I disagree, I say that the crime problem is with lack of accountability for their actions and lack of visible policing and patrolling.

Fair doing something to change your situation is acceptable as long as it is done in a civilized and orderly manner following the relevant procedures through the bodies responsible for overseeing education rollout etc.

Obviously you and others don't see eye to eye with me on this subject. This opinion I have on this matter is something that has formed over the last 2 years, because of the behaviour of the "masses". Forgive me if my opinion seems "extreme".

Regarding the topic I think my position is clear: get past the past(hehe) and work towards a better future. Otherwise you will forever be stuck in the past.

 

[Xarog]

That is the thinking of someone that lives in the past. Sure you must bare the circumstances created by the past, but thats no reason to harp on about it on and on.

I'm not suggesting people harp on and on about the past. I'm saying we must remember the past so that we do not repeat the same mistakes. In this context, I'm saying that we should make sure that *everyone* has access to a quality education.

I don't understand what you mean, your comment doesn't make sense in context of what I ment. I'll repeat: People must stop moaning about how bad apartheid was and live for their future instead. Why is it that a small handfull can move on create businesses and make a success from nothing yet theres milions still begging for handouts? You understand what I mean? I mean they must plan their futures instead of just expecting it to fall out of the sky.

The handful is lucky, to be frank. Currently, there simply isn't enough of an economy to support everyone, whether they're entrepreneurs(sp) or not. If everyone was to come up with these ideas, the competition between all these people fighting over these few ideas/clients for a business would be so fierce that most people would just end up losing more than what they had.

I benefited, but I did not vote them into power hence I am not accountable.

I was too young to vote when the 1994 elections came. Also, I'm not suggesting that white people must suddenly give up all their land and whatnot. But at the same time, everyone should remember what happened in apartheid to prevent it from happening again. And that includes watching the ANC incase it tries to attempt a reverse-apartheid.

Fair comment but that argument is based on the assumption that problem with crime we have now is because of lack of education primarily. I disagree, I say that the crime problem is with lack of accountability for their actions and lack of visible policing and patrolling.

No, I'm saying that the primary cause of crime is a lack of employment. As for what caused that unemployment, well that's open for debate. A lack of an educated workforce is one cause, imo.

Fair doing something to change your situation is acceptable as long as it is done in a civilized and orderly manner following the relevant procedures through the bodies responsible for overseeing education rollout etc.

Can only be done if the govt. recognises your right to education etc. The Apartheid government did not do this, infact they claimed it was wrong to educate bantus with things that they didn't need - total and utter tripe. In this country, black people had no choice but to resort to actively opposing the authority of the government, including not recognising its right to exist. That's a very different situation to the vandalism that striking workers cause today, btw.

Obviously you and others don't see eye to eye with me on this subject. This opinion I have on this matter is something that has formed over the last 2 years, because of the behaviour of the "masses". Forgive me if my opinion seems "extreme".

I don't see it as extreme - I just think you're making a mistake.

Regarding the topic I think my position is clear: get past the past(hehe) and work towards a better future. Otherwise you will forever be stuck in the past.

I'm not stuck in the past, but I am aware of it. Ensuring a good education for everyone is definately a step in the right direction, wouldn't you agree? Looking at how messing up education messed up the past is a good way of showing people why education is important, wouldn't you also agree?

 

[pupa]

...... I'm saying we must remember the past so that we do not repeat the same mistakes.

So why then change street names, wipe history books, make everything a lie? Seems we have a case of selective memories, remember what we want you too and not what history was! So lets remember Apartheid as a bad era so it reminds us to never fall in that trap again! Hey, we agree? NO! what are the ANC doing with BEE/AA?? discriminate again! Where it all started in 1964 +- Thus lets just remember the ANC and forget the rest! Madiba was not such a fool the rest? I wonder?

 

[Xarog]

So why then change street names, wipe history books, make everything a lie? Seems we have a case of selective memories, remember what we want you too and not what history was!

Strawman. I never once supported the changing of street names etc.

So lets remember Apartheid as a bad era so it reminds us to never fall in that trap again! Hey, we agree? NO! what are the ANC doing with BEE/AA?? discriminate again!

I do not support AA/BEE and have said so before on this forum. What more do you want? Shall I go and assassinate government ministers?

 

[Darth Garth]

So suffer this drivel as we suffer the drivel of your ANC goons daily!

My only comforting thought Pupa in reading your ever worsening angry racist drivel on this forum is that your kids will still be under these ANC goons as you call them long after we are gone

Well karma is a bitch ain't it ???.

Nothing we both say will change either of our minds so why bother repeating the same old same old arguments on this forum ... we have been through all of this for the last few months already ???.

YAWN mate.


Saw this morning and so true.

"If somebody has decided to believe something - whatever the evidence - then there is nothing you can do about it."

http://books.guardian.co.uk/hay2006/story/0,,1785655,00.html

Btw ... have a nice sunny day .

 

[rwenzori]

This business of claiming that you had no control of Apartheid is not true, because if you look at the election polls since 1940's the National Party has won and won well - thus whites wanted and appreciated their right wing policies. It could only be whites because they're the only people who were enfranchised to vote. Ponder about that! Remember you're a minority in this country, and it's time you started behaving like one!

Where do these low-post-count trolls spring from? Who is lurking behind the mapstar nick? You will find the answer.... behind.... The Creaking Door!

Never voted Nat - thankfully. Look at what that papbroek or kortbroek chap has become! Grins away on TV like a cheap tart who has just been given a $10 tip.

BUT! The whites did change, and in the end voted to support the dismantling of apartheid and the handover of power. For that you pinko ANC supporters give us zero credit.

How do you behave like a minority? Bend over and take it from behind? Stuff that!

 

[Hastur]

Understand that crime is a from of back lash from apartheid and considering the alternatives of civil war - I'll take crime.

I'm not sure if naïve really covers it, more like ignorant.
I'm not sure what the new history books say, but for a long time there was a civil war fought, although a lot of it didn't take part in this country. It was taken the staging grounds of the anc in SWA and Angola.
What makes this country belong to the black....because they got here first...if that is the case then the whites should move out of America and give it back to the Indians who got there first, or is it just because the whites were humane and didn't slaughter the blacks to the point of extinction. Crime is not a form of backlash due to apartheid. Look at any other country in the world that has not had apartheid, they still have crime. Crime is bred from the innate laziness of people who have no conscience or morals and will take the easiest manner to acquire wealth, especially when there is no effective deterrent for the crime. Bring back the death penalty and maybe the criminals won’t be so eager to slaughter men, women and children in their beds. You won’t be so happy to accept crime when you’re mother or girlfriend/boyfriend is raped and stabbed to death or if you ever have one a child murdered and discarded like yesterdays trash.

Africa wasn't destitute before whites came, it was calm and in balance with its environment - white's have brought the bloodshed and capatalism - and we need to accept that.

No it wasn't destitute, but it had no viable economy as things were being run on a cash crop basis. Again read your history books. The various tribes regularly came to blows. I don't know what you think, but the spear when shoved into someone releases one hell of a lot of blood and they had those before the whites landed.

I agree that blacks need to pave their own way, but at the same time we shouldn't stand in the way either with DA like politics.

Forgive me if I take it wrong, but I thought we lived in a democracy not a totalitarian state where the anc can do what they wish with nobody to try fight for the rights of the minority. Also it was the DA who fought the strongest in the white community to give the blacks the right to vote and decide their own fate.

It's not an equal relationship, we have to take the time to relate to them - because it's their country - whether you want to accept it or not.

No unequal relationship will ever lead to a harmonious conclusion. They might have the country, but the majority of the whites contain the knowledge to make it run. Remove the whites and the country will collapse at a faster rate than it already is. Even the anc has begun to realize this and is attempting to attract back those whites who had the means to leave.

 

[stix]

"WHY must the white man lend a hand?"

Sheesh brew they have had their hand in the till since the 1900....promoting corruption and yes men leaders in Africa to benefit their startegic and economic interests........

 

[jabulani]

White people should remember SA's past.

Remembering.....

Low crime
Maintained infrastructure
Safe to walk at night
Sheltered employment
Annual all-expenses paid tour to exotic locations via SADF


Yes - takes one back!

 

[DigitalSoldier]

"No, I want to say that if these criminals had received a proper education, they probably would have had other choices to consider. It stands to reason that some of them would rather work than steal - and that would mean a lower crime-rate. We have 40% unemployment in this country. It's madness to think that's not a contributing factor to our crime rates. And our unemployment rate HAS been affected by post educational policies"

ROFL !!!

These criminals are sick people that needs to be shot and then shown to the world sure sure education plays a role in the "development" of crime.

And yes lets blame apartheid and education for the baby raping but then also start to look at countries with more uneducated people living on streets uhm Brazil etc.

A lot of countries have A LOT of uneducated people why dont these people go on a rape,murder spree ? But its all good when we can blame apartheid and the no education factor. And if you didnt know there are lots of uneducated people in this messed up country but why do they understand rape/murder is bad ?

Must be fun being "previously disadvantaged" because you can never ever ever be wrong or responsible for any problem.

 

[DigitalSoldier]

And that includes watching the ANC incase it tries to attempt a reverse-apartheid.tries ?? They are already busy with

Can only be done if the govt. recognises your right to education etc. The Apartheid government did not do this, infact they claimed it was wrong to educate bantus with things that they didn't need - total and utter tripe.

What about white people being turned down at varsitie for bursaries ?

 

[Xarog]

What about white people being turned down at varsitie for bursaries ?

As I said, I do not support AA/BEE.

 

[Angelo]

That's me folks. I'm off to bed.

Thanks for the discussion. I just intended it to be thought provoking. One thing I can tell you is that I'm certainly hapier than most of you in this county, simply because of my attitude. Black people see it and respond to it positively. Understand that crime is a from of back lash from apartheid and considering the alternatives of civil war - I'll take crime. My view on Minorities have arisen as a result of all the countries I've travelled and lived in. Only in South Africa have I seen a minority conduct itself like a mojority, and this same minority treat the majority and like a minority. The sooner as whites we understand our place in South African society - so sooner we can start working with Blacks to build a better country. It's not an equal relationship, we have to take the time to relate to them - because it's their country - whether you want to accept it or not. Africa wasn't destitute before whites came, it was calm and in balance with its environment - white's have brought the bloodshed and capatalism - and we need to accept that. I agree that blacks need to pave their own way, but at the same time we shouldn't stand in the way either with DA like politics.

That's me. No more posts, this debate will go in circles. All the best and I hope you're re-evaluated your position in South African society.

A very refreshing viewpoint for a change, in recent weeks reading this forum has been like being a fly on the wall in a Right Wing organisation's meeting. I wonder how you'll get labelled as I don't think the "stop playing the race card" nonsense usually directed at opposing views applies to you. I wouldn't be surprised if you are gone for good as this forum is lately not very accomodating to those with a balanced view of things. But the country is advantaged to have young people like you.

 

[lewstherin]

This has been a very entertaining thread to read and its clear that the original topic was derailed about 3 pages back.
There are a lot of people that have deep rooted opinions and feelings around the topic of SA and their particular position in it. Hell if you were born in the country and its all you've ever known, of course you will feel that way.

As a individual in SA - particularly as a currently disadvantaged individual (ie. non-black) - you have very little hope of making any real difference or having a real impact on government policy. Hell even as a band of individuals (eg. DA) you don't have much chance in the face of such an overwhelming majority of uninformed masses.

Faced with that realisation, your options are limited since "fighting the system" might be a noble thing to do but it doesn't improve your life much (if anything it just gets you more ulcers).

Ultimately I believe it comes down to your particular view of SA.
If you feel you are being unfairly discriminated against, you have 3 options in my mind:
1. Change your circumstances by leaving the country or trying to learn other/new skills that do not incur the discrimination.
2. Moan your ass off to everyone (who has heard the same from many others already), but do nothing tangible to improve your own lot.
3. Suffer in silence/go with the flow.

If I were to rank Saffas according to the above courses of action, I'd say probably 10% are in group 1 and 15% are in group 3. The other 65% are group 2 but aside from simulating discussion what real difference do they make to the situation?

In summary, I believe the biggest impact any individual can hope to have is by voting with their feet.
If you choose to stay, great but then get positive about things because you chose to stay!