Why are web devs so rubbish?

I

Ipwn 4

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/rant on

been dealing with quite a few web devs(shame on you for having dev in your title thinking that knowing HTML makes your a developer) lately who have managed to worm their way into substantial contracts with our clients resulting them pushing all their templates to our servers, so far I have found that:

1) everyone and their mother is pushing templates (the amount of Enfold based sites alone is shocking). I live for the look on your face when questioned where the 50 hours the client paid for custom development went when you barely modified a stock template.
2) you claim performance/load is a problem when in actual fact you a) have no idea how sql works which b) make your weak php scripts blow up in smoke the moment more then 1 person causes them to load at once.
3) The wheels come off when asked to secure the whole site with SSL or implement pretty URLs
4) very few actually have a dev/test environment and want to work on live websites
5) image optimization is a foreign concept.


/rant off

also, how do the actual web developers feel about the little template pushing one man shows popping up all over the show?
 
Ipwn 4 said:
/rant on

been dealing with quite a few web devs(shame on you for having dev in your title thinking that knowing HTML makes your a developer) lately who have managed to worm their way into substantial contracts with our clients resulting them pushing all their templates to our servers, so far I have found that:

1) everyone and their mother is pushing templates (the amount of Enfold based sites alone is shocking). I live for the look on your face when questioned where the 50 hours the client paid for custom development went when you barely modified a stock template.
2) you claim performance/load is a problem when in actual fact you a) have no idea how sql works which b) make your weak php scripts blow up in smoke the moment more then 1 person causes them to load at once.
3) The wheels come off when asked to secure the whole site with SSL or implement pretty URLs
4) very few actually have a dev/test environment and want to work on live websites
5) image optimization is a foreign concept.


/rant off

also, how do the actual web developers feel about the little template pushing one man shows popping up all over the show?
Click to expand...

Wait until you have to find good enough Linux administrators who are capable of securing a Linux server, tuning Apache, installing/configuring mod_security/mod_evasive and implementing proper server management.

With regards to templates: In the past I have sourced some good professional services from guys from CodeCanyon. i.e. I search for solutions close enough to what I need to have resolved and then commission the developer to provide a custom solution - this turns out substantially cheaper than doing it with local/in-house resources (although the USD/Rand exchange is currently really screwing us over).
 
you claim performance/load is a problem when in actual fact you a) have no idea how sql works which b) make your weak php scripts blow up in smoke the moment more then 1 person causes them to load at once.
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There's your problem right there. Most people who "code" in PHP have no business calling themselves developers.
 
Agreed - it's quite a nightmare. For a start, I can't stand template-driven design as it opens so many doors for 'fraud'.

For any wannabe's reading this thread, "a web developer is a programmer who specializes in, or is specifically engaged in, the development of World Wide Web applications, or distributed network applications that are run over HTTP from a web server to a web browser." (source)

For further clarity, "a web application or web app is a client-server software application in which the client (or user interface) runs in a web browser." (source)

Try starting from scratch. You'll get stuck at the first line.
 
The real evil is Wordpress which allows any cowboy to put together a sub-standard site without knowing anything about how it works. I've seen the work of these sorts of cowboy developers, and it basically consists of downloading Wordpress, downloading a template and a few widgets and then cobbling it all together. I'm not saying don't use a CMS, but at least use a proper one.
 
deweyzeph said:
The real evil is Wordpress which allows any cowboy to put together a sub-standard site without knowing anything about how it works. I've seen the work of these sorts of cowboy developers, and it basically consists of downloading Wordpress, downloading a template and a few widgets and then cobbling it all together. I'm not saying don't use a CMS, but at least use a proper one.
Click to expand...

Too true - this is my biggest issue with WordPress. What's worse is the firms who do actually advertise template-driven websites, stating that the chances of the template being used anywhere else in the client's industry are second-to-none.

This is why I prefer the alternative of a platform that does not encourage template-driven design (if you can even call it design).
 
How much you pay them? If you pay a developer 10K per month you'll get what you pay for.
 
Very true. I can relate as in my line of work, I work very closely with developers because I have to guide and optimise user experience of clients websites but I have often come across template jockeys who have no idea what they are doing. The bright side is that I usually get those template jockeys fired by their clients for a proper developer who can make the changes I need.
 
ChocolateBadger said:
Very true. I can relate as in my line of work, I work very closely with developers because I have to guide and optimise user experience of clients websites but I have often come across template jockeys who have no idea what they are doing. The bright side is that I usually get those template jockeys fired by their clients for a proper developer who can make the changes I need.
Click to expand...
The question is where do they find them?

If you put your website on the internet or attend developer events it is not like clients are going to come a knocking. That leaves the guys that hook clients with ads for websites for R2000 on gumtree.

You get what you pay for.
 
It is a sad state of affairs.

I'm not even a developer but I can do mostly everything listed in the OP and therefore this crap irritates me as much as anything.

I'm all for Wordpress when people are helping themselves though.
 
SauRoNZA said:
It is a sad state of affairs.

I'm not even a developer but I can do mostly everything listed in the OP and therefore this crap irritates me as much as anything.

I'm all for Wordpress when people are helping themselves though.
Click to expand...

For sure, Wordpress is great for hacking together a site in a short space of time. The problem is when these Wordpress cowboys who don't know their SQL from their XML charge clients good money for "developing" a website, when in actual fact all they are doing is downloading and configuring templates and widgets. The moment you need them to do something remotely custom that actually requires writing code, they either hack something together using the PHP manual, or you just never hear from them again.
 
SauRoNZA said:
It is a sad state of affairs.

I'm not even a developer but I can do mostly everything listed in the OP and therefore this crap irritates me as much as anything.

I'm all for Wordpress when people are helping themselves though.
Click to expand...
It's not even my job & I did a site for someone a while back built from scratch with html and hacked perl scripts. Yeah it doesn't' scale 100% properly for mobile but they're happy with it for now. It boggles how people get paid as devs / designers and their first port of call is to decide which service (squarespace, wix, wordpress) etc. to use. They probably think CHMOD is a biscuit.
 
The problem is a client often can't distinguish between a template jockey and the real deal. Yes, price is often an indication, but I've seen template jockeys charge R22k for a single page wordpress site. You don't always get what you pay for. The problem the bona-fide developers and designers sit with is that we now have to work at a lower hourly rate to compete - I've had to code faster than ever before. I feel hopeless sometimes to see potential clients run to a cheaper alternative and then see what sort of rubbish product they end up with. But hey, let's not be so pessimistic, it's Christmas time after all!
 
90% of "people who write code for a living" are not fit to be called "software developers" too, so swings and roundabouts
 
deweyzeph said:
There's your problem right there. Most people who "code" in PHP have no business calling themselves developers.
Click to expand...

you know you're trolling.




Anyway. I agree with the OP, but:

I think in all industries you're going to have people ripping other people off. I do think that templates do have a place in "creating a website" (I'm specifically not using "developing a website")

I know plenty of people that don't want to spend more than R5000 to have a web presence. For a developer, you're wanting to be making a living, so you're charging R400+ an hour, correct?
What are you supposed to develop for someone within 12 hours, including getting the requirements, meetings, etc?
Myself, I have a standard 10 hour line item for admin alone.

So, having a client that wants to spend R5000 and someone that is willing to get paid R5000 to put up a customised template site, I think that's fine.


Having the same person charging R40 000+ for a template is going a bit far, unless there is a lot of custom dev (which does not seem to be the case according to the OP).

Your client has been caught out. Luck for you, you now get to come in a be the knight in shining armour, fix it all up and get more work as result of exposing the bad developers. If you're not wanting the work - I've love to have the clients details :)




sidenote: When I started I though that charging a minimum of R40 000 for a 4 to 5 page site was daylight robbery. Once I'd done one or two of them myself, I realised how much stuff, besides development, goes into it and that the R40 000 gets gobbled up pretty quickly.
 
deweyzeph said:
There's your problem right there. Most people who "code" in PHP have no business calling themselves developers.
Click to expand...

Thats your problem, thinking PHP is not what "developers" use. Have you made over R1M off a $5 pm server using just PHP before upgrading?

Real devs use whatever tools at their disposal to get the job done. If you don't know at least HTML/CSS/Javascript/JQuery/PHP/MYSQL/SQL/Java/C# then you may be a bit narrow minded dev.
 
koeksGHT said:
Thats your problem, thinking PHP is not what "developers" use. Have you made over R1M off a $5 pm server using just PHP before upgrading?

Real devs use whatever tools at their disposal to get the job done. If you don't know at least HTML/CSS/Javascript/JQuery/PHP/MYSQL/SQL/Java/C# then you may be a bit narrow minded dev.
Click to expand...

I agree with the sentiment of what you guys are saying and agree a dev will use whatever tools they have at their disposal to get the job done properly, however, there is a trickle of truth in the PHP dev thing. Lots of people jump onto PHP as a first language and because it's so loosely structured it makes it easy to develop in. This generally leads people to not follow any kind of formal training and continue to throw together crap because they have little or no understanding of how to properly design and develop code. There are many PHP devs that are worth their weight in gold though and I use PHP often as it definitely has it's strengths.

There is definitely a mountain of useless devs out there but that's evident by how many senior jobs are available that cannot be filled. Even people with 10-15 years of dev experience cannot fill these rolls because they are just useless at the work.
 
I am yet to meet a PHP dev who follows even the most rudimentary of proper development processes. Most PHP devs I've met barely know what source control is, nevermind actually use it. Continuous integration? Forget it. Continuous deployment? Huh, what's that? Unit testing? Not in your life. Object orientation? Design patterns? Multi-tier applications? Dependency injection? These are all terms completely alien to your average PHP cowboy.

These are fundamental development processes and methodologies that any proper web developer worth his salt knows backwards.
 
deweyzeph said:
I am yet to meet a PHP dev who follows even the most rudimentary of proper development processes. Most PHP devs I've met barely know what source control is, nevermind actually use it. Continuous integration? Forget it. Continuous deployment? Huh, what's that? Unit testing? Not in your life. Object orientation? Design patterns? Multi-tier applications? Dependency injection? These are all terms completely alien to your average PHP cowboy.

These are fundamental development processes and methodologies that any proper web developer worth his salt knows backwards.
Click to expand...

Right, now I understand where you're coming from and I agree.

Where have you been looking for these php developers?
 
I think the problem has a lot to do with the lack of skills in this country. There just is not enough people to do the work. This leads to employers having to employ more people that they would not in a perfect world.
 
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