Why are web devs so rubbish?

rward said:
Right, now I understand where you're coming from and I agree.

Where have you been looking for these php developers?
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I haven't been specifically looking for PHP developers, but in my business we do a lot of API integrations with third-parties who have developed their API's in-house using their resident PHP cowboys, and this is just what I have come across and noted from my experience in dealing with them. Don't even get me started on the quality of their API's either. They seem to never have heard of any API standards like REST or SOAP, preferring instead to just roll out their own bespoke made-up protocols.

CorrieDeBeer said:
I think the problem has a lot to do with the lack of skills in this country. There just is not enough people to do the work. This leads to employers having to employ more people that they would not in a perfect world.
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I also think the quality of developer training in South Africa is shocking. If you look at the course-work and material that these guys learn, it's like they're stuck in the nineties. They come out of these courses knowing only the most rudimentary elements of web development, and then some poor company is stuck having teach these people how to write code properly. The reality is that small businesses in South Africa don't have the resources to train developers properly, and why should they have to?
 
Quality of developers nothing to do with a language, to state that is just plain ignorance on your behalf.
 
Some good points made in this thread. My question is, what are you willing to pay for an experienced developer that fulfills your requirements ?
 
semaphore said:
Quality of developers nothing to do with a language, to state that is just plain ignorance on your behalf.
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I completely agree, and apologies to all the proper PHP devs out there. It's just that for some reason PHP in particular seems to attract a special kind of cowboy. That's not to say that PHP can't do or accomplish anything that any other language can. In fact PHP has come a long way since it's earlier days, especially when it comes to object orientation.
 
We do a lot of platform development for clients (as well as not too shabby front ends) but very frequently we get told not to do anything with the front end (despite having our own more than capable in-house designers) the ad agency will produce the website well before the deadline because that is their expertise and they have the best "web developers" on the planet - I can't tell you how many times the front end turns out to be a glossy 100MB Photoshop layout (and nothing else) delivered the night before the launch deadline... and then we get told, "Oh but they gave you the website on time".

As for Wordpress, it's not a bad starting point, providing you fully understand the nuts and bolts and use it appropriately. Ultimately, it's just a big php loop with functions attached, but provides a handy basis for hanging off a whole lot of pre-made functionality quickly. To get a decent result you really have to understand how to create your own template, or heavily modify an existing one. Unless you're doing a quick and dirty cheap website, just customising a template slightly doesn't cut it.
 
There is one company I would stay far away from in JHB. They are the worst designers I've ever encountered.
 
garp said:
We do a lot of platform development for clients (as well as not too shabby front ends) but very frequently we get told not to do anything with the front end (despite having our own more than capable in-house designers) the ad agency will produce the website well before the deadline because that is their expertise and they have the best "web developers" on the planet - I can't tell you how many times the front end turns out to be a glossy 100MB Photoshop layout (and nothing else) delivered the night before the launch deadline... and then we get told, "Oh but they gave you the website on time".

As for Wordpress, it's not a bad starting point, providing you fully understand the nuts and bolts and use it appropriately. Ultimately, it's just a big php loop with functions attached, but provides a handy basis for hanging off a whole lot of pre-made functionality quickly. To get a decent result you really have to understand how to create your own template, or heavily modify an existing one. Unless you're doing a quick and dirty cheap website, just customising a template slightly doesn't cut it.
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A big problem is that many people don't understand the difference between back-end web development and front-end web development. These two disciplines within web development have become so specialised now that I always treat anyone who claims to be an expert in both with a healthy dose of skepticism. Sure, there is a hell of a lot of overlap between the two, especially when it comes to Javascript, but the skillsets involved in doing both properly means that only someone with superhuman skills could honestly claim to be an expert in both. Given the choice and resources, I would rather have specialists in both working on a project, than a single jack-of-all-trades cowboy.
 
deweyzeph said:
A big problem is that many people don't understand the difference between back-end web development and front-end web development. These two disciplines within web development have become so specialised now that I always treat anyone who claims to be an expert in both with a healthy dose of skepticism. Sure, there is a hell of a lot of overlap between the two, especially when it comes to Javascript, but the skillsets involved in doing both properly means that only someone with superhuman skills could honestly claim to be an expert in both. Given the choice and resources, I would rather have specialists in both working on a project, than a single jack-of-all-trades cowboy.
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We have specialists in both, not a one man outfit, and it works quite well as both teams understand each other's requirements well and can collaborate efficiently. What slays me is that many ad agencies seem to completely confuse web design with web development. A Photoshop layout is not a website, FFS!!
 
garp said:
We have specialists in both, not a one man outfit, and it works quite well as both teams understand each other's requirements well and can collaborate efficiently. What slays me is that many ad agencies seem to completely confuse web design with web development. A Photoshop layout is not a website, FFS!!
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Yip, that is shocking. Design is a completely different discipline from development. Clients don't understand it either. They don't understand why a project needs a web designer, front-end web developer and back-end web developer. And then on top of that a project manager, account manager, etc. A properly managed and run web development project does not come cheap which probably explains the proliferation of these one-man Wordpress cowboys.
 
deweyzeph said:
Yip, that is shocking. Design is a completely different discipline from development. Clients don't understand it either. They don't understand why a project needs a web designer, front-end web developer and back-end web developer. And then on top of that a project manager, account manager, etc. A properly managed and run web development project does not come cheap which probably explains the proliferation of these one-man Wordpress cowboys.
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Yes, at least 6 employees is about R2m in salaries per year. No chance of the "R5k special 1 year hosting"
 
I think the biggest limiting factor in SA is the clients.

They don't understand the advantages of all the good things you're talking about - tests, CI, proper design (architecture and graphic), etc.
and they don't understand why they should throw money at your Rxxx xxx quote when someone else is offering what appears as the same visual end product for a third of what you're charging.

So yeah, costs need to be cut and things need to be left out to get the hours down.
 
I just want to add to this conversation. Security in some of these custom web apps I have done penetration testing on are so sad. I remember this one web app I tested where they had a login page with username/password and OTP but the problem was that it can be bypassed by pointing to a random page behind the login page and you can be admin by changing the UserID to 1.
 
You buy cheap and you buy twice. If you hire some guy who charges these "incredible rates" to build your website (Front and back end), then they most likely learnt everything off of YouTube, if you're going to be stingy and not fork out some decent cash for someone with a real qualification in development then the fault lies with the employer and not with the dev. When it comes to Web dev, don't be cheap, it will pay off in the long run.
 
skimread said:
The question is where do they find them?

If you put your website on the internet or attend developer events it is not like clients are going to come a knocking. That leaves the guys that hook clients with ads for websites for R2000 on gumtree.

You get what you pay for.
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Well, a lot of dev shops look only for recent graduates, no experience needed, which I think is better in the IT line.
koeksGHT said:
Thats your problem, thinking PHP is not what "developers" use. Have you made over R1M off a $5 pm server using just PHP before upgrading?

Real devs use whatever tools at their disposal to get the job done. If you don't know at least HTML/CSS/Javascript/JQuery/PHP/MYSQL/SQL/Java/C# then you may be a bit narrow minded dev.
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Exactly...
CorrieDeBeer said:
I think the problem has a lot to do with the lack of skills in this country. There just is not enough people to do the work. This leads to employers having to employ more people that they would not in a perfect world.
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...and then the cost of training, yues, its easy to say when you are on R350-R500/h to go and do courses, though time might be a problem. But most starting out these days can't affford R15000 for a weeks training...
and also , lots of devs don't come from a web background, web is relatively new, since early 2000s(correct me if I'm wrong) so many guys didn't cross over because of whatever reason, I mean you work for big corporates. Most are still running older client /server systems, developeed in Powerbuilder, Deplhi ... running SQL server and there aren't people /money/time to rewrite those in web. And many of us are stuck with those , and companies don't want to cross skill, and devs don't want to go to junior rates because you're now a junior java dev where you were a senior SQL, c# etc dev
ajv said:
Some good points made in this thread. My question is, what are you willing to pay for an experienced developer that fulfills your requirements ?
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thats the problem there... not sure but I got the idea from a couple of dev shops that they want to employ young grads, they are on PNET etc. I've seen the presentation of one at Cycling SA. Inexperience clearly showed. Technically the site was OK, but these guys were about to display everyone IDNo to the world. Would you pay R500 /h for an experienced guy to do a proper job irR150/h for a graduate with no experience...many seem to take graduates, and because they can use and abuse these guys, they don't have houses, responsibilities , they can work late etc etc etc....
 
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I'm not sure that using themes are necessarily a bad thing. If your clients just want basic functionality then the cost and time savings make using pre made code well worth it. It is just too bad that a thing that is meant to facilitate better development is used to mask ineptitude.

Wordpress often gets a bad rep but if you can design a static front page and can turn out WP sites in a timely and cost effective manner then becoming a Wordpress developer can be one of the more easy entry points into the IT sector.
 
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Thor187 said:
That was me in school many years ago... Dammit if I look back now...

I have came a long way.
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I did the same when I dipped my fingers into web development a number of years back. Quickly realised that I was out of my depths when clients started to ask for more features, and I found myself searching for free scripts to try solve the problem.

I have since gone back to what I do best - and that's not development.
 
genetic said:
I did the same when I dipped my fingers into web development a number of years back. Quickly realised that I was out of my depths when clients started to ask for more features, and I found myself searching for free scripts to try solve the problem.

I have since gone back to what I do best - and that's not development.
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That's what's fun. Finding an innovative solution to a problem.
 
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