supersunbird
Honorary Master
But Jannie cant defend the LIFO and 30 day expiry, he just keeps mum on that part.
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Why data expires – Explained by a hacker
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But Jannie cant defend the LIFO and 30 day expiry, he just keeps mum on that part.
R13...
Honorary Master
I don't remember his comments on LIFO but I know he's tried to explain the 30 day expiry with his buckets analogy (for one).
supersunbird
Honorary Master
Nah, that analogy doesn't fly, the old up-to-61-days/end-of-next-calendar-month worked for ages, it's just more profitable to have 30 day expiry.
And if the data does not expire, all of the subscribers would not be trying to use up all of their data all at the same time.
Another problem with the proposed thought experiment is that the 10 million subscribers are all using the same physical "capacity" at the same time, whereas in real life networks are distributed and bandwidth varies from one area to another area and is upgraded over time based on average usage in a particular area. It gets more complicated with backhaul interconnects and peering which allows the bandwidth load to be spread and reduces bottlenecks.
To put it another way, removing the data bundle expiry variable would allow network operators to upgrade their capacity more gradually based on average usage in any specific area.
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
Yes, this expiry nonsense distorts customer behaviour away from statistically predictable usage patterns that are well understood, reducing network operators' ability to plan upgrades properly. Just stop doing it is the answer.
You may disagree with their business plan, and I agree with you. However, calling an opinion article "clickbait" because you don't agree with the argument is silly. Do you only want to see articles you agree with? Will you never try to see the merits of the other side's argument?
(Merriam-Webster)
The article has merit IMO, it at least showed the other side's viewpoint and why the operators do it. Now I can analyze that and see if I agree or disagree. I disagree, so yes. The article has value.
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
I am not the first one to call the article "clickbait"
It makes sense from the viewpoint of trying to increase profit margins. Where I have the problem is that it's oversimplified and the example is neither valid nor realistic. You'll never in eternity have all users or even 10% of them waiting 50 weeks to use all their data in 2 weeks. But even if they did it would average out as they didn't all buy them at the same time.
In all scenarios data usage is an average of typical user behaviour so networks can't come with the excuse it allows them to better plan their capacity. In fact bundles are problematic from a single user perspective as as they cause unnatural user behaviour and a surge towards the end of the bundle's lifetime. Calendar bundles are an even bigger problem as usage increases at the start of the month and towards the end of the month. This is the case both for adsl ISPs as well as Vodacom and MTN.
Oh he tried by invoking Vodacom honoring their contractual obligation by using the new bundle first. A contract which they set up.
Well it is sort of clickity bait by using "hacker".
Since when is a security advisor a hacker? When articles have headlines like this it be omes clickbait. They could've left off the “Explained by a hacker” and the article would have more merit.
Besides, if the networks allow data to rollover indefinitely there wouldn't be 10m people trying to use up their data, network load remains more stable. Problem solved. This article actually explains exactly why expiring data is a problem, not why it should expire in the first place.
Hacker indeed
Besides, if the networks allow data to rollover indefinitely there wouldn't be 10m people trying to use up their data, network load remains more stable. Problem solved. This article actually explains exactly why expiring data is a problem, not why it should expire in the first place.
Hacker indeed
supersunbird
Honorary Master
Since when is a security advisor a hacker? When articles have headlines like this it be omes clickbait. They could've left off the “Explained by a hacker” and the article would have more merit.
Besides, if the networks allow data to rollover indefinitely there wouldn't be 10m people trying to use up their data, network load remains more stable. Problem solved. This article actually explains exactly why expiring data is a problem, not why it should expire in the first place.
Hacker indeed
Would they need to keep the telephone number active indefinitely as well while there is data or can they recycle it after whatever many months of non activity?
ekske1
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Geoff.D
Honorary Master
Number recycling is another issue all together. Numbers should NOT be recycled until there is absolute proof that the previous customer has cancelled the service he had on that number.
It's the most ridiculous example I have ever seen. In no reality will all 10 million people not use their data for 50 weeks but, even more ridiculous, if they WERE able to carry their data over - even in that crazy example - there would be no need for all of them to use up all their data during the last two weeks!
supersunbird
Honorary Master
In fact (especially for you lot saying data shouldn't expire) there should be no data bundles in existence and thus no rollover or expiry, and you should just get a fixed uncapped line speed. If you can't afford the high cost* of the 1mbps (or more) wireless, connection, you'll just have to be happy with your 256kbps speed
*just the fact of limited spectrum
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
In fact (especially for you lot saying data shouldn't expire) there should be no data bundles in existence and thus no rollover or expiry, and you should just get a fixed uncapped line speed. If you can't afford the high cost* of the 1mbps (or more) wireless, connection, you'll just have to be happy with your 256kbps speed
*just the fact of limited spectrum
Costs and limited spectrum are NO excuse for expiring "data" which does not exist anyway. There is no justification for the expiry of "data" plans other than in invalid business plans based on mostly fictitious scenarios, one of which was tabled in the article that triggered this discussion.
There are no differences between networks whether they are wireline ( copper or fibre) or wireless (FWA or mobile or satellite), when it comes to capacity constraints. Each network has its own specific constraints. when capacity runs out, any "new" connections must wait until some capacity is released by someone else.
The mobile industry has for years played the scarce spectrum card, sometimes justified and sometimes not. In this case, that card means absolutely nothing.
A customer chooses to (because the network providers allow for it), a postpaid or a pre-paid option.
The post-paid customer pays a fixed access charge (or should be paying such a charge), which gives him access to the network to use when he wants and for how long, which then gets charged for based on his usage.
The pre-paid customer goes to a provider and says in essence:
"here is xx Rand which I am prepared to pay you now so that I can use the network when I need to and for how long. I am of my own free will, giving you my money in advance".
Both want to be able to use the service they have paid for and neither should find their allocation is limited because they failed to use the facility it a fixed time period. It is just plain and simple theft.
Any spurious justification whether is it scare spectrum or otherwise, dos not make up for the fact that operators are stealing from their customers when they make data packages expire.
There is absolutely no correlation between the costs of building, maintaining and replacing the network and the expiry of packages whether they are for minutes, SMS's or data. It such dependencies exist in a business plan, then they exist because the business plan has artificially created such a dependence.
At the time when you try and use a network, it is congested, overloaded or busy, it does NOT matter in the least. You as the user have to wait regardless until some capacity is freed up.
supersunbird
Honorary Master
Oh yes there is, if you think there isn't, you are wrong.
So they didn't accept the conditions of the sales transaction? They didn't know it expires (especially after buying more after the first ever expiry)?
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
There are only four variables in the communications business, and these have been around since the first telephone was invented.
(1) Access.
(2) Time of day service demand.
(2) Duration of the connection.
(3) The distance over which the communication service is required.
No other variables exist.
Access is best charged for with a fixed fee, dependent on the capacity of the access.
Time of day charges allows for handling peak demand. It does not matter whether it is a trip on the Gautrain, Energy charges, or making a telephone call, or, a "data" connection. There is a justification for charging more during peak hours based on the scarcity of "capacity" to try and spread the load.
Duration because this directly relates to for how long the capacity is used.
Distance, because this relates to how much physical network infrastructure is used.
(1) Access.
(2) Time of day service demand.
(2) Duration of the connection.
(3) The distance over which the communication service is required.
No other variables exist.
Access is best charged for with a fixed fee, dependent on the capacity of the access.
Time of day charges allows for handling peak demand. It does not matter whether it is a trip on the Gautrain, Energy charges, or making a telephone call, or, a "data" connection. There is a justification for charging more during peak hours based on the scarcity of "capacity" to try and spread the load.
Duration because this directly relates to for how long the capacity is used.
Distance, because this relates to how much physical network infrastructure is used.
Why do you need a number to use data? The networks can just keep the sim numberless or even issue numberless ones until you request a number. Funny how changes are only made when it suits the networks. There's no practical reason data or airtime should expire. It's all just a convenience to them so they don't have to keep a liability on their books and can charge you again for the service.
Telkom has unlimited LTE for like R700 pm. I don't see a reason why they can't have unlimited at e.g. R100 per mbps month. It's all just networks trying to dupe us with usage based packages when they don't pay for usage.In fact (especially for you lot saying data shouldn't expire) there should be no data bundles in existence and thus no rollover or expiry, and you should just get a fixed uncapped line speed. If you can't afford the high cost* of the 1mbps (or more) wireless, connection, you'll just have to be happy with your 256kbps speed
*just the fact of limited spectrum
Why is it that everything in this country including the breadcrumbs must be expensive?
supersunbird
Honorary Master
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
Oh yes there is, if you think there isn't, you are wrong.
So they didn't accept the conditions of the sales transaction? They didn't know it expires (especially after buying more after the first ever expiry)?
There we go, when the chips are down, The contracting card is played. This debate is not about that contract we entered into, BUT the principals that should drive HOW those contracts are formulated in the first place!
And if you can't see that a network is a network is a network, then you are completely blinded by your long exposure to whatever network you are working in. The cost of provision of each network type is different and yes, that might influence the final service charges, but in essence, there is only one line in a business plan to cover that.
There is a line to cover "maintenance", and another to cover "replacement". The rest is just detail.
Oh I forgot, there are three more lines in a Business Plan:
Shareholder returns
Profit
Ripoffs and Scams (package expiry lies in this line)
A "network" is built, with a coverage/extent/reach, with a certain capacity to handle service provision, within the constraints of the technology deployed. That is all, nothing more, nothing less.
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