Why ISIS fight

[AfricanTech]

That doesn't make them correct, it just makes them widely shared. And the schism between Sunni and Shia is quite large. And there's a geopolitical consequence to this - Iran (Shia) vs. Saudi Arabia (Sunni).

And there's some sketchy stuff going on in the majority of Islam, too.

92% of the target group [in Saudi Arabia] believes that "IS conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law."



Yep. At the same time, though, Islamism (and its violent version - Jihadism) is a not insignificant force in modern day Islam. It's something of a war for the soul of the religion. The bulk of the victims of Islamism are other Muslims, including reform-minded ones.



They're people who believe they're doing the right thing. They sincerely believe in their ideologies. It's the content of the ideology that fuels their actions, is my point. They're not simply 'evil' in a vacuum.

Fair enough

 

[Kilgore_Trout_Redux]

If it is common practice then there should be no difficulty in finding the applicable law pertaining to stoning rape victims.

There are many cases of this happening.

But this is pretty much what concerns me about Islam. You say you don't advocate Sharia Law but you are hellbent on defending it and you refuse to question or criticize it. If I were to ask you directly "Do you believe publically stoning a women to death for adultry is morally correct? " I really doubt I would get a straight answer. It's the same thing for the question I posed to Falcon786 upthread.

The problem is that modern Muslims tend to try really hard to avoid asking themselves how a modern, enlightened civilization is possible if you take the Koran literally. To be Muslim means you support a caliphate and Sharia Law and that comes with public stonings, executions and amputations for minor "Crimes".

 

[Fury05]

There are many cases of this happening.

But this is pretty much what concerns me about Islam. You say you don't advocate Sharia Law but you are hellbent on defending it and you refuse to question or criticize it. If I were to ask you directly "Do you believe publically stoning a women to death for adultry is morally correct? " I really doubt I would get a straight answer. It's the same thing for the question I posed to Falcon786 upthread.

The problem is that modern Muslims tend to try really hard to avoid asking themselves how a modern, enlightened civilization is possible if you take the Koran literally. To be Muslim means you support a caliphate and Sharia Law and that comes with public stonings, executions and amputations for minor "Crimes".

Did you intentionally ignore the part where I said "do not take this as an endorsement of Sharia Law" but rather a clarification. Just because I gave you a supplementary point on the Shariah Legal system, does not mean I am defending it. Where you picked up I'm hellbent on defending it is beyond me. And no I dont believe stoning to death for adultery is morally correct, thats my straight answer. Again your ignorance on the Shariah legal system is your biggest stumbling block at the moment. Stoning is only one of the sentencing that could be given to the offending parties, it is not the only punishment which can be enforced. Same applies to petty theft etc.

To your other point on literal interpretation of the Quran, why do you want to interpret the Quran literally? Who said it has to be taken literally?

But back on the original point. Can you provide a source for your claims of a rape victim being stoned?

 

[Nanfeishen]

They're people who believe they're doing the right thing. They sincerely believe in their ideologies. It's the content of the ideology that fuels their actions, is my point. They're not simply 'evil' in a vacuum.

They are people of a faith, faith breeds fanatics, fanticism breeds extreme ideologues, and that is what ISIS is, nothing more than a group of extreme ideologues, hell bent on destruction and death to anything or anyone not of the same mindset.

They and others propogate an archaic anachronistic set of beliefs that are not compatable with the times we live in, nor is there a place for them in a civilized society, either living alongside it or amongst it.

They are barbaric remnants of history, and should be consigned back to history swiftly and and painfully, before they and the likes of them drag humanity back into a secular world of superstitious ignorance.

If reason and acceptance fail, then logic dictates we put away our over indulged senses of emotion and do what is necessary, not necessarily what is right.

 

[Kilgore_Trout_Redux]

But back on the original point. Can you provide a source for your claims of a rape victim being stoned?

First thanks for the answer.

To answer your question here is probably the most famous case of a 13 year old girl reporting a rape and being stoned to death for adultry. The Islamic defence was that "She should not have been stoned to death because she was too young. But if she was older it would have been fine."

There are others but quite frankly googling and reading this stuff just puts me in a poor frame of mind for some time afterwards.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning_of_Aisha_Ibrahim_Duhulow

Here is another article on why you don't want to be raped if you are a woman living under Sharia Law.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-s...being-raped-the-burden-of-women-under-sharia/

 

[Fury05]

First thanks for the answer.

To answer your question here is probably the most famous case of a 13 year old girl reporting a rape and being stoned to death for adultry. The Islamic defence was that "She should not have been stoned to death because she was too young. But if she was older it would have been fine."

There are others but quite frankly googling and reading this stuff just puts me in a poor frame of mind for some time afterwards.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning_of_Aisha_Ibrahim_Duhulow

Here is another article on why you don't want to be raped if you are a woman living under Sharia Law.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-s...being-raped-the-burden-of-women-under-sharia/

The wiki article itself mentions that charging her for adultery is against Islamic Law. I'm not familiar with this issue so much won't comment too much on it, suffice to say Al Shabaab was involved, might as well have been ISIS, Boko haram etc.

Look I get that you are actually trying to point out how barbaric certain people are implementing what they consider Shariah Law, but to get to the root problem you need to look at the source. I cannot find any Islamic Source or law dictating stoning a rape victim.

Again you need to find an Islamic law backed by Hadith and Quran to support the notion that these acts are Islamic. I'll remind you again I am not endorsing Shariah Law, I'm simply clarifying an obvious misunderstanding.

 

[Kilgore_Trout_Redux]

Look I get that you are actually trying to point out how barbaric certain people are implementing what they consider Shariah Law, but to get to the root problem you need to look at the source. I cannot find any Islamic Source or law dictating stoning a rape victim.

I think you misunderstand me. I believe that Shariah Law is an ancient and archaic system that is fundementally at odds with a modern enlightened civilization.

That girl was stoned to death because Sharia law explicitly states that rape requires 4 male witnesses to prove. Her gang rapists testified that it was not rape - which made it adultery.(You were talking about burden of proof earlier. There it is. Sharia style.)

Sharia law explicitly states that one of the punishments for adultery is death by stoning (With 1000 lashes being the merciful option.).

It may make Muslims feel better to find technicalities to weasle out of admitting it (In this case Islamic clerics cite her age. Which is clearly absurd.) but Sharia Law caused that girls horrific death.

In this day and age these laws are unacceptable.

And on a side note : Thanks for the discussion Fury. I know I am coming across a bit harshly but I do appreciate it when people engage and try to answer the tricky questions in a transparent manner. I also want to reiterate that the vast majority of Muslims out there are really decent folks. I just struggle to see how a person can reconcile a religion that has changed so little over the last 1500 years with the modern age.

 

[Fury05]

I think you misunderstand me. I believe that Shariah Law is an ancient and archaic system that is fundementally at odds with a modern enlightened civilization.

That girl was stoned to death because Sharia law explicitly states that rape requires 4 male witnesses to prove. Her gang rapists testified that it was not rape - which made it adultery.(You were talking about burden of proof earlier. There it is. Sharia style.)

Sharia law explicitly states that one of the punishments for adultery is death by stoning (With 1000 lashes being the merciful option.).

It may make Muslims feel better to find technicalities to weasle out of admitting it (In this case Islamic clerics cite her age. Which is clearly absurd.) but Sharia Law caused that girls horrific death.

In this day and age these laws are unacceptable.

Which you are fully entitled to believe. But let's not start interpolating things into Sharia law which isn't true.

As I said, you need to show where Shariah Law gives anyone the right to stone a rape victim.

Here are verses from the Quran for you to consider

The adulterer and the adulteress — flog each one of them with a hundred stripes… (An-Nur 24:3)*

…And those who calumniate chaste woman but bring not four witnesses — flog them eighty stripes and do not admit their evidence ever after.
********-(An-Nur 24:5)

Edit: oh and by the way, those men would have to be stoned as well using their interpretation of Shariah Law. This alone shows you how perverted people like al shabaab etc. are.

 

[Grant]

since we have drifted onto stoning - from pew research:


i'm a little surprised at the numbers for palestine