Will a server benefit our office?

[blue-eye-boy]

Hey all, I hope you guys can steer me in the right direction. Lets first explain our current pc setup in our office at work, which is a butchery/retail shop.

Some might think why a butchery will need a server setup, but believe me, I'm starting to think in that direction. Here's how we currently operates. We have 3 pc's, all of them run Pastel Evolution. The main pastel database is on the main pc, which is not running very well any more. It needs a bit of attention. Then the other 2 other pc's work as "workstations" on the main pc's pastel database. My pc is one of them, which also has cctv cameras installed on, labels are printed from my pc, a bit of design software, openoffice, and a butchery costing software. The other workstation as I said is also a pastel workstation, also has our time & attendance and timekeeping software installed, also openoffice, and a few admin programs.

Now at this moment we actually need one extra pc, which we can use for label printing, and also a few admin tasks.

The problem I have now, is my wife needs to work at home some times. Some times she needs to do payroll admin, or general admin, pastel work, or timekeeping admin. But the Pastel database is on the pc at work. Then also I need to for example design a label, to be printed on the extra pc, but while the lady doing that, I need to carry on on my pc. I need to do costings and price changes an stock control mostly at work, but also from home on weekends. I need to be able to access files on both the other pc's, and them also on my pc.

Now atm we are connected via network cable/router setup, and also has teamviewer installed. So we get along. But I started to wonder if a server setup wont work better for us. I'm not familiar with how it works, or what the benefits will be, but will learn how to maintain it if needed to do. I will read up and ask advice from you guys if you tell me it is better to have a server, with the pc's connected to it. Then all the files and programs is on the server, and everyone is connected to that, and work off that, easier to backup every thing.

Or am I missing something, how does this stuff works?

Pls explain. Thanks a million.

 

[shogun]

Noop, you've pretty much nailed it. I think you understand correctly.

Disclaimer: I'm going to punt azure here (probably unfairly, as there are loads of other providers with great services) purely because it's what i'm working with, and i'm loving it.

Having a server somewhere is almost a must these days. I have one just for my personal backups (photos etc) that I don't want to risk loosing on a portable hard drive etc. I also use it to run certain software I build in my own time.

If you get a server to keep your things on, just make sure of a few things:

1. Make sure your connection to it is fast enough. Some people punt local hosting (it is faster), but my server is fast enough for what I need and I'm hosted in one of Microsoft's Azure data centres in Western Europe.

2. You can get a trial account with the likes of azure for example to test everything out. It's super simple, and you can throw it away if you are not keen to use it... won't cost you a cent. This would be a good way to test if setting up your own server would work for you.

3. Just having a server does not mean that your data is immune to hardware failure... unless you have a cloud based VM like the ones on Azure (and probably amazon, I am not sure). Reason being is that when you set up a VM (virtual machine) on azure, the "hard drive" is actually stored across 3 different drives in the data centre, and is automatically backed up off site in another data centre at least 400 miles away from the data centre you are in. This means that you really don't need to worry about hardware failures loosing you data. The caveat here is that some other VM hosts do provide redundancy, but a lot don't so watch out, and you are of course not safe from users deleting stuff... but you aren't safe from that anywhere unless you set up nightly backups.

4. See point 1. Speed is going to be your bottle neck. Not the speed of your server, but the speed of your ADSL connection etc. I'm not sure how much data you are going to need to transfer between work and home for your pastel, or how the pastel stuff works (i.e. do you need to run pastel remote desktop style? or do you have pastel software on your own machine, and the pastel software just talks to the server). I really don't know pastel at all, so I don't know how it gets set up. If you run it locally on your laptop, and point to another database file over a network, then it may get a little more crazy on a virtual machine depending on the provider. I know with my Hetzner box, as long as I had my remote desktop set up once, I could map a folder on the server as a network drive no problem. On azure this is not possible unless you set up a VPN (more $ per month).


I may not have been 100% clear here, but to be honest, the best way to figure it out is to start a free trial and see for yourself if it could work:

http://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/free-trial/

You might eventually go with another hosting provider if you do decide this can work for you... but a free trial to test with makes sense instead of handing cash over for something that might not work.

Best of luck.

 

[Rickster]

Upgrade he PC that is doing all of the tasks, what are the specs of that PC?


BTW I think you meant a Dedicated PC not a server.

 

[HavocXphere]

While I have a great deal of confidence in shogun on a broad level I'm not convinced Azure is a good fit. Specifically because:

I'm not sure how much data you are going to need to transfer between work and home for your pastel, or how the pastel stuff works (i.e. do you need to run pastel remote desktop style? or do you have pastel software on your own machine, and the pastel software just talks to the server).

Pastel is one of those apps that doesn't do standard IT common sense all that well. They rule the SME finance world & have the luxury of ignoring rules as a result. You do things their way or you don't do them at all. Rolling with that plus a cloud setup...colour me unconvinced.

To me it sounds like the main "need" right now is remote connectivity. Cloud would be ideal for that but I don't see cloud + pastel happening easily. So imo the best bet is improving the connectivity instead to make the current remote better.

 

[blue-eye-boy]

Upgrade he PC that is doing all of the tasks, what are the specs of that PC?


BTW I think you meant a Dedicated PC not a server.

Yes, seems like I named it wrong. The dedicated pc seems more what I need. But what are these "see through" cases I see in many big offices then? Isn't that a server, or as mentioned, a dedicated pc? Sorry, Im a noob on this....

 

[blue-eye-boy]

And I know pastel will use a **** load of data, so I dont think that will do for us.

 

[nomdeplume]

How do you have Pastel Evolution installed!!! That seems like the completely wrong product for you and believe you should look at that problem first.

 

[Aquadyne]

I think you need to keep it simple & efficient.

Get a small little file server (HP Microserver) running Windows 7 Pro. Pop in a few 3TB HDD's. Mirror those in Raid configuration for redundancy.

Subscribe to Google Apps for Business. Store all your important files in the Google Drive folder, including the Pastel data files. That will ensure backups are done as well as having accessibility of real time data off site.

Upgrade the existing machines to speed them up a bit.

Now all the mail will be backed up plus you have an efficient system at relatively low cost.

 

[blue-eye-boy]

How do you have Pastel Evolution installed!!! That seems like the completely wrong product for you and believe you should look at that problem first.

Pls explain why you say its the wrong product for us, we use that for many years now.

 

[blue-eye-boy]

I think you need to keep it simple & efficient.

Get a small little file server (HP Microserver) running Windows 7 Pro. Pop in a few 3TB HDD's. Mirror those in Raid configuration for redundancy.

Subscribe to Google Apps for Business. Store all your important files in the Google Drive folder, including the Pastel data files. That will ensure backups are done as well as having accessibility of real time data off site.

Upgrade the existing machines to speed them up a bit.

Now all the mail will be backed up plus you have an efficient system at relatively low cost.

Thats what I'm talking about. Can you maybe guide me to where I must start, what to look for, what to buy and what not? Thanks

 

[sajunky]

The main pastel database is on the main pc, which is not running very well any more. It needs a bit of attention.

I would focus on finding out what is a reason of "not running very well anymore". What do you mean by saying "needs attention"?
I agree with others you don't need dedicated server for Pastel. Maybe you just need to do full backup of database and fresh OS install. Windows is like a meat - it stinks if not fresh.

 

[InvisibleJim]

As an alternative to the microserver, Qnap and Synology do great NAS devices which are quite straightforward to configure and maintain. You want to look at one with at least 2 drive bays so you can run 2 mirrored disks in RAID 1. These devices can do all sorts of cool (useful) things like run Owncloud (like a private Dropbox) and other applications.

Some people here will probably disagree with me but I would also suggest that you don't go overboard with the amount of storage that you put in place. I would guess that 2TB useable storage is probably more than enough for you to use as a business file server (or Owncloud,) back up important documents from the Pc'S and the Pastel Database. You can back up the NAS to USB external drives that you rotate offsite weekly.

Western Digital Caviar Red are good drives for a small NAS device. Steer clear of cheaper hard drives particularly those that are branded 'green power' as these are supposedly more prone to data loss. You would need x2 2TB drives for 2TB of useable RAID 1 storage.

 

[paddy_za]

I think you need to keep it simple & efficient.

Get a small little file server (HP Microserver) running Windows 7 Pro. Pop in a few 3TB HDD's. Mirror those in Raid configuration for redundancy.

Subscribe to Google Apps for Business. Store all your important files in the Google Drive folder, including the Pastel data files. That will ensure backups are done as well as having accessibility of real time data off site.

Upgrade the existing machines to speed them up a bit.

Now all the mail will be backed up plus you have an efficient system at relatively low cost.

Do this ^

 

[shogun]

While I have a great deal of confidence in shogun on a broad level

Thanks for the compliment.

I'm not convinced Azure is a good fit. Specifically because:


Pastel is one of those apps that doesn't do standard IT common sense all that well. They rule the SME finance world & have the luxury of ignoring rules as a result. You do things their way or you don't do them at all. Rolling with that plus a cloud setup...colour me unconvinced.

To me it sounds like the main "need" right now is remote connectivity. Cloud would be ideal for that but I don't see cloud + pastel happening easily. So imo the best bet is improving the connectivity instead to make the current remote better.

I agree actually, now that I think about it more.

Hence the caveat... working with an app over remote desktop is never the way to go, and if there's loads of data, that's not going to happen. The problem here is that I haven't seen how it runs, or how the db connectivity works etc. Reading the other replies here, I have to agree with yours, and theirs.

I think Aquadyne pretty much has it right here.

What I would like to see here, is a web based accounting package, or at least a distributed system so that you can work offline and online. That would obviously be an ideal, but from what I gather here, that's not what pastel does. We've headed that route with emails and documents for years (by "we", I mean most small companies that I know). It's only a matter of time before pretty much all our software runs that way. Local caching of data for connectivity outages and speedy response times, and online storage of everything so that you don't have to worry when you aren't at the local site, or if there's a break in and stuff is stolen etc. Aquadyne's solution gets you as close to this as possible without changing the software you use. It's still cloud (i'm starting to dislike the word cloud, but that's another topic altogether) in every aspect, or at least the back ends to the services he's suggesting, so you don't need to worry about data loss.



/dissapears off back into the cave from whence he came.

 

[FreeStanler]

I use and deploy Zoho Books to small to medium businesses, to great effect. It is cloud based, so anyone can access it from anywhere. User interface is super user friendly; yet it is a fully fledged double entry bookkeeping system. Work is always backed up. You don't need super pc's to run it. Barely need to do any setup. Can even access from your tablet and smartphone, in an optimised app.

Inventory management is almost to be added, as well as payroll. I presume those things are of great importance to you specifically, so you could consider holding off for a little while.

If you need help with Zoho services, give me a PM.

 

[CataclysmZA]

I think you need to keep it simple & efficient.

Get a small little file server (HP Microserver) running Windows 7 Pro. Pop in a few 3TB HDD's. Mirror those in Raid configuration for redundancy.

Subscribe to Google Apps for Business. Store all your important files in the Google Drive folder, including the Pastel data files. That will ensure backups are done as well as having accessibility of real time data off site.

Upgrade the existing machines to speed them up a bit.

Now all the mail will be backed up plus you have an efficient system at relatively low cost.

This is a good idea for small businesses, it requires very little maintenance. I'd also like to point out that you don't need to use a Microserver either.

When I was a server admin for one of the businesses I worked at, we had a rackmount server that ran everything that didn't need to be hosted on the other machines, including the camera monitoring, the employee clocking system and the Pastel and Access databases. My boss would log in to the server from his laptop over the weekends using remote desktop and do anything he needed to from there. We also had Server 2008 R2 running there, which helped simplify things somewhat.

I would build up a regular ATX tower with reasonable specs (Pentium G3220, 4GB RAM, 350W PSU) with a 128GB SSD to host the OS and Pastel and anything else you need, while also putting in two 2TB hard drives in software RAID 1 (mirrored) to host any local data you need as well as the camera recordings. My experience with Pastel has also been that it works much faster and with less hassles on a gigabit ethernet network, so if you get to upgrading the other computers in the butchery you can look at upgrading your network switches to gigabit speeds as well.

If you have internet connectivity on any of your machines, I'd also consider finding an older PC that you're not using and repurpose it as a proxy server running PFSense. PFSense can do a lot of interesting things including data caching to save on your cap and you can set up the box to be a wireless router as well.

 

[blue-eye-boy]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all your input.

Some may know that I'm not a genius on this area, so pls bear with me if I ask stupid questions.

First, where can I buy these servers and components online, which online store is up to date, and priced good?

I will discuss this info you gave me with my dad, we are partners. Then I will add up the costs involved, and again discuss it. He is willing for change, but I must get my storyline straight.

Then, I googled this hp microservers yesterday afternoon. If I buy, I will get the best possible unit, because I've seen so many places and suppliers, always complaining about their systems, and I suppose it is server setups. So the last thing I need, is a system which hangs all the time, or goes offline all the time, things like that.

Now, my next question, this server, it is a "box", with the motherboard and hard drives inside. Do I access it through say, my computer, or wherever I need to access it?

Then also, say I need to o work at home, do I then log into that server from home? And if I can, will speed be a problem then?

 

[Ipwn 4]

Yes, seems like I named it wrong. The dedicated pc seems more what I need. But what are these "see through" cases I see in many big offices then? Isn't that a server, or as mentioned, a dedicated pc? Sorry, Im a noob on this....

If you are running Pastel evolution (and definitely not partner) then a dedicated pc will be the fly by night noob IT Technician thing to do. You need a server OS and not a matrix i7 with win 7 sharing over a home group.

The posts Re going hosted make sense for the remote users however!! You print labels and have some random costing software, this can be a pain to get going remotely (the printers need to be redirected which means everything you print will run over the Internet to your pc and the to the printer. Liable printers are notorious for not working and I assume you will have some POS printers which will also be a pain.) I'm not saying it can't be done, just saying that it might not be feasible from a once of labour and maintenance thereafter.

The realistic thing that you will need to do is look at getting something like a Dell T20 and a IT company that can rent you software. That way you will get away with getting a proper server environment for a few hundred bucks (rough guess would be R400pm for server 2012 std and 1 user.) a month rather the paying 10k for base license once off. Then you can embrace the cloud with Backups and maybe hosted email if you really want.

No offence but your setup is fairly simple but far from ideal.

 

[Ipwn 4]

This is a good idea for small businesses, it requires very little maintenance. I'd also like to point out that you don't need to use a Microserver either.

When I was a server admin for one of the businesses I worked at, we had a rackmount server that ran everything that didn't need to be hosted on the other machines, including the camera monitoring, the employee clocking system and the Pastel and Access databases. My boss would log in to the server from his laptop over the weekends using remote desktop and do anything he needed to from there. We also had Server 2008 R2 running there, which helped simplify things somewhat.

I would build up a regular ATX tower with reasonable specs (Pentium G3220, 4GB RAM, 350W PSU) with a 128GB SSD to host the OS and Pastel and anything else you need, while also putting in two 2TB hard drives in software RAID 1 (mirrored) to host any local data you need as well as the camera recordings. My experience with Pastel has also been that it works much faster and with less hassles on a gigabit ethernet network, so if you get to upgrading the other computers in the butchery you can look at upgrading your network switches to gigabit speeds as well.

If you have internet connectivity on any of your machines, I'd also consider finding an older PC that you're not using and repurpose it as a proxy server running PFSense. PFSense can do a lot of interesting things including data caching to save on your cap and you can set up the box to be a wireless router as well.

Wow. Really wow.
Pastel evolution on a custom built Pentium.
Let's take a business critical app and stick it on a matrix box with no warranty, no Onsite, and most of all a consumer ssd (unless you are referring to a 20k ssd with your Pentium?) but our shared docs on a software based raid? OS of choice Mr server admin I am going to guess is Windows 7 for this "dial core server"? Lekker man lekker. Why not just get an HP micro server and some Sbs.

I might sound like a d@@s but honestly, OP is looking to improve his situation. Posts like the above might make things run better now but give it a year and see what happens.

Op please will you advise on the size of your Pastel and shared data and also which version of Evolution and SQL you currently have. Will post my solution just for giggles to see how I can compare in terms of pricing, features and reliability.

 

[Ipwn 4]

And I know pastel will use a **** load of data, so I dont think that will do for us.

Data isn't the issue as you won't have app local and the database in the cloud as Pastel over vpn is a really bad idea (unless you have serious low latency Internet).

What happens is your entire Pastel gets moved to the cloud which can be Azure or local. As mentioned in one of my other posts this causes issues as you now need to either have none or all of your Pastel in the cloud.

If you go for all of your next challenge is the following:
- you need redundant Internet ie ADSL with 3g failover. As your business won't be able to use Pastel when you have no Internet. For some business this is a nightmare as they come to a standstill.
- your Pastel and other apps (assuming you don't just move Pastel) now need to interact with local hardware over the Internet. Traditional remote desktop services will redirect most of your local hardware but there is a good chance that some or all of it won't redirect.

To compensate for redirection not working some people opt to create something called a hybrid cloud. This allows them to Access printers over the LAN but creates a more complex environment.

You need to keep your stuff local for now. Nothing wrong with experimenting and looking at cloud but I can't see it being financial feasible for so few users at the moment.