Wits students protest over tuition fee increase

[Xarog]

Education like all else costs money. The lecturers must be paid. The students need toilet paper to wipe their butts in the toilets after eating varsity lunch. The light bulbs have to burn.

Someone has to pay that. And there are not enough payers in SA to provide free education. Well there would be if ESKOM was not so badly fsked up and trade unions did not ask for exorbitant increases and embarked on so many strikes. Never mind the govt overtaxing.

Now education can be a right in that nobody can be refused access as long as,
1. They can afford it.
2. They can find a bursary.
3. They are intelligent and hard working enough - so need to meet some minimum requirement.

Even in places where varsity education is free, people still have to pass exams and some degrees are so competitive there really is no right to do say medicine for everybody. You want to do med, you have to have straight As. And this would still occur even if education was free in SA, which would mean education is not a right because much of it seems to be reserved for those who do well in tests.

Now there's no test to write for the right for free speech, free association, health care etc.

Actually, given the rise of cloud computing it is reasonably feasable to create a system which can educate anyone that has access to an internet browser. Once the initial cost has been paid, the number of users ought to have little if any impact on the cost of maintaining the system.

 

[Space_Chief]

Actually, given the rise of cloud computing it is reasonably feasable to create a system which can educate anyone that has access to an internet browser. Once the initial cost has been paid, the number of users ought to have little if any impact on the cost of maintaining the system.

Well that's a scenario different to the current tertiary education one.

Although even that costs money because someone has to update these lessons, present these lessons, check these lessons, test students and assist students with problems.

And it won't work for professions such as say dentistry. And one also has to remember that many of these professions don't want too much competition.

 

[Vrotappel]

Actually, given the rise of cloud computing it is reasonably feasable to create a system which can educate anyone that has access to an internet browser. Once the initial cost has been paid, the number of users ought to have little if any impact on the cost of maintaining the system.

There are already numerous avenues of free education available on the internet. Accreditation would be a problem.

 

[Mila]

Darn for a moment I thought I was reading St Francis Xavier. Oh well. It's still a nice quote even though the man is not as great.

Still well said. I'm not blessed with words as others are. Adversity breeds success. giving free education to fat boy and his supporters is not going to help anybody. Do you think they want to work for anything? No. Their masters have been telling them they will be getting it free since the 1980s.

 

[Xarog]

Well that's a scenario different to the current tertiary education one.

Aye, I'm just saying that we shouldn't allow today's difficulties be tomorrow's difficulties.

Although even that costs money because someone has to update these lessons, present these lessons, check these lessons, test students and assist students with problems.

Yes, but it should be an immense leap in terms of overall affordability. We could in theory provide a university level education to everyone. The only thing that would have a significant repeatable cost in terms of manpower would be proving one's knowledge to society through the forms of exams etc.

But the knowledge, the education itself, would be as available as Wikipedia is today.

 

[Space_Chief]

Aye, I'm just saying that we shouldn't allow today's difficulties be tomorrow's difficulties.

That would be a seperate issue. I think already now there are free online tuition courses available yet people somehow don't use them, and instead use their computers and tablets for screwing around on social media and uploading selfies.

 

[Mila]

Actually, given the rise of cloud computing it is reasonably feasable to create a system which can educate anyone that has access to an internet browser. Once the initial cost has been paid, the number of users ought to have little if any impact on the cost of maintaining the system.

If access to knowledge was the determining factor for success we all would be successful. We live in a world where libraries and information is free to anybody, it is at our fingertips. The ability and willingness to work long and hard is what makes the difference.

Anyone of these people can get a free degree online. What is stopping them? It is available.

 

[Xarog]

That would be a seperate issue. I think already now there are free online tuition courses available yet people somehow don't use them, and instead use their computers and tablets for screwing around on social media and uploading selfies.

Who takes you seriously today if you tell them you graduated through a free program on the internet? What the government will need to do is create avenues that these things actually start to carry reputable weight.

 

[Space_Chief]

Who takes you seriously today if you tell them you graduated through a free program on the internet? What the government will need to do is create avenues that these things actually start to carry reputable weight.

Xarog, one can pass these courses and score top marks in high school and then get a bursary for a university which should be taken seriously. Who does that these days? You see kids with tablets - even quite poor kids - and what do they use these for? Messing around.

In fact I would recommend Khan Academy over HS attendance. Why attend HS where you can get stabbed, be exposed to rapists and bullying as well as teachers who engage in sexual liaisons with their adolescent students?

Then just write exams. And with good results you get a scholarship or bursary and you're set. Fsck the system.

It won't happen.

 

[Space_Chief]

Of course Xarog, if these varsity degrees become so common every Tom, Dick and Harry has one, they won't be acceptable any more. To excel you'll need a Masters. And then a PhD. And then Post-Doc work.

 

[Neoprod]

We could in theory provide a university level education to everyone. The only thing that would have a significant repeatable cost in terms of manpower would be proving one's knowledge to society through the forms of exams etc.

I like the idea but I think the most I learned at varsity came in tut sessions and practicals i.e. the theory taught in class was the smallest contributor.

...and there's the rub because you need people and material for tuts and practicals.

 

[Mila]

Who takes you seriously today if you tell them you graduated through a free program on the internet? What the government will need to do is create avenues that these things actually start to carry reputable weight.

If you do the right courses. It doesn't help if you do these "get your doctorate in a week" courses.
Reputable universities over the world give free courses, but it takes long hard hours.
I know employers take it seriously, mr miles company even give a list of courses they recognize ,they don't take uncle Joe's school of computer science seriously though.

 

[CruelBreeze]

Come on! These f@ckers are busy burning the

By the time I knew what was happening (5am), the burning was all done. Two small fires and the major one at the matrix (bookstore). As much as I don't agree with what is happening, "busy burning" implies continuation. It stopped before the sun was up. Apparently 3 individuals who aren't students were arrested for the arson (not confirmed).

 

[Space_Chief]

I like the idea but I think the most I learned at varsity came in tut sessions and practicals i.e. the theory thought in class was the smallest contributor.

...and there's the rub because you need people and material for tuts and practicals.

That's a valid point. But when it comes to elementary and high school ed, online with maybe parental, older sib or hired tutor or friend / buddy based learning could work. And your child is not exposed to sex predators, idiot friends, drugs, bad kids and state brain washing.

 

[Xarog]

Of course Xarog, if these varsity degrees become so common every Tom, Dick and Harry has one, they won't be acceptable any more. To excel you'll need a Masters. And then a PhD. And then Post-Doc work.

I don't think there's anything at University that need be so complicated that the average person could not understand it.

Maybe I have too much faith in humanity, I dunno. But certainly, even if there are limitations, a person who works hard ought to be able to educate themselves in such a way that they gain proficiency in new skills as well as the certification which allows them to prove to their prospective employers that they do in fact know what they're talking about. This is, after all, the education that the masses truly want, is it not?

Is it such a crime to make it easier for them to get it by making the entire process cheaper than it is today? Should we not take advantage of the new opportunities that technology affords us?

Xarog, one can pass these courses and score top marks in high school and then get a bursary for a university which should be taken seriously. Who does that these days?

In theory. In practice, if you're born in a rural area you're SOL.

You see kids with tablets - even quite poor kids - and what do they use these for? Messing around.

That's cuz the idea that one can use such a thing to educate oneself is not an idea they ever get told. They should be shown, and yes it is leading a horse to water, but some of them will drink.

In fact I would recommend Khan Academy over HS attendance. Why attend HS where you can get stabbed, be exposed to rapists and bullying as well as teachers who engage in sexual liaisons with their adolescent students?

I am not sure what you are referring to here. Can you provide more details?

Then just write exams. And with good results you get a scholarship or bursary and you're set. Fsck the system.

It won't happen.

Can happen. You just have to convince the masses to believe in the possibility. And one does that by building a system that works, even as one teaches independance so that individuals are encouraged not to rely on the system more than is needed.

 

[Space_Chief]

I don't think there's anything at University that need be so complicated that the average person could not understand it.

Depends on the course.

I would gather mathematically heavy fields are such that even hard work will get you to at best a C or a B. If you're talented in that it will be easy. Also cramming large amount of information could be a problem for some people.

Is it such a crime to make it easier for them to get it by making the entire process cheaper than it is today? Should we not take advantage of the new opportunities that technology affords us?

But this does not work for basic ed, so why should it work here. Still even if it works, the issue is that these people want university access.

In theory. In practice, if you're born in a rural area you're SOL.

Then kids in urban areas..... eh?

Now you know also that online learning at varsity level could suck so you answered your own question.

That's cuz the idea that one can use such a thing to educate oneself is not an idea they ever get told. They should be shown, and yes it is leading a horse to water, but some of them will drink.

Well it's because statists run SA and lefties want kids to attend Prussian styled schools.

I am not sure what you are referring to here. Can you provide more details?

Do you not know that schools are quite unsafe for learners? You never heard of "sugar daddies"? or predator teachers?
of classroom bullying? or just ordinary criminals in schools? Or perhaps just ordinary bs school drama?
Never mind of the kids who die en route to school every day in overcrowded taxis?

Now a parent instead could get a desktop computer (with no fancy GPU so no games) with a basic DSL connection and that would work out less than paying school fees, buying uniforms, giving kids tuck shop money, transport fees, textbook fees etc. Stuff like this could happen at community level with parents getting together and doing this.

 

[Xarog]

But this does not work for basic ed, so why should it work here. Still even if it works, the issue is that these people want university access.

I would expect social sciences in the university level will do reasonably well in this format.

Now you know also that online learning at varsity level could suck so you answered your own question.

Could, but could also not.

Well it's because statists run SA and lefties want kids to attend Prussian styled schools.

You could just as easily point at the current business attitude in society which tries to churn out pre-programmed little consumer units that don't think for themselves. It's really not a left-only thing.

Do you not know that schools are quite unsafe for learners? You never heard of "sugar daddies"? or predator teachers?
of classroom bullying? or just ordinary criminals in schools? Or perhaps just ordinary bs school drama?
Never mind of the kids who die en route to school every day in overcrowded taxis?

I mean, what is this Khan Academy you speak of?

Now a parent instead could get a desktop computer (with no fancy GPU so no games) with a basic DSL connection and that would work out less than paying school fees, buying uniforms, giving kids tuck shop money, transport fees, textbook fees etc. Stuff like this could happen at community level with parents getting together and doing this.

Yes. The system ought to naturally predispose itself towards helping people teach each other. To make learning a collaborative effort where you get to pass on what you've learned if you are at all capable of sharing your understanding of things. Much like wikipedia, we can teach people how to become intrinsicly motivated to this goal instead of extrinsicly motivated.

 

[Space_Chief]

I would expect social sciences in the university level will do reasonably well in this format.


Could, but could also not.

You could just as easily point at the current business attitude in society which tries to churn out pre-programmed little consumer units that don't think for themselves. It's really not a left-only thing.

Lots of businesses are run by lefties. And business tries to sell you stuff. I don't think their marketing approach changes how people should think. TV ads indoctrinate you for a few minutes each day, but school is 6hours.

I mean, what is this Khan Academy you speak of?

https://www.khanacademy.org/

Yes. The system ought to naturally predispose itself towards helping people teach each other. To make learning a collaborative effort where you get to pass on what you've learned if you are at all capable of sharing your understanding of things. Much like wikipedia, we can teach people how to become intrinsicly motivated to this goal instead of extrinsicly motivated.

Wiki is funny because often enough the sites of European politicians and other figures get whitewashed or otherwise changed on Wiki. Also controversial topics and people .... well.... it's not just that sharing of truth is a motivation. But that's OT

 

[Xarog]

Lots of businesses are run by lefties. And business tries to sell you stuff. I don't think their marketing approach changes how people should think. TV ads indoctrinate you for a few minutes each day, but school is 6hours.

What I am saying is the non-lefty businesses are just as happy to have consumerist drones working for them that have no concept of independent thought and so naturally conform themselves to the corporate culture etc. etc.

The problem is more pervasive than simple left/right politics.

https://www.khanacademy.org/

Yes. Imagine a site like this had government support and initiatives building social networks in the community aimed at improving the success of projects like this. If made workable it could save the government huge sums of money.

Wiki is funny because often enough the sites of European politicians and other figures get whitewashed or otherwise changed on Wiki. Also controversial topics and people .... well.... it's not just that sharing of truth is a motivation. But that's OT

Yes. I imagine the desire to educate would be somewhat freer of this politicisation, at least outside of the social sciences.

 

[crackersa]

4 Stun grenades for 10 people? That's overkill.

And they say America has police brutality