Zuma presidency 'not all bad'

[oronte]

I really liked Oronte's examples of Mbeki's long-term planning that we are going to reap the benifits of

AU - Lame duck... say no more

trade deals - arms deal? chinese dumping ?

prioritizing broadband access - bttlng t typ i*m lghing s hrd

Thnks mate... that was brilliant

I'm tired of arguing. Is everyone just incredibly short-sighted and pessimistic? (if you are then the world's always going to be awful for you, what you want to believe informs your reality) Infraco isn't going to happen tomorrow, but it will eventually. The AU doesn't work today but it will eventually. You're just being pessimistic about trade deals (there are positive and negative sides to everything). Just because your life isn't better doesn't means everyone else's isn't. There are lots of people in SA who are only getting running water, telephone lines, televisions, computers for the first time, in a country with such a discrepancy between 1st and 3rd world realities, that in itself is huge.

 

[boramk]

He critisized Mbeki for his work on Zim, but he openly says afterwrds he will also pursue quiet diplomacy

 

[Jozi101]

I'm tired of arguing. Is everyone just incredibly short-sighted and pessimistic? (if you are then the world's always going to be awful for you, what you want to believe informs your reality) Infraco isn't going to happen tomorrow, but it will eventually. The AU doesn't work today but it will eventually. You're just being pessimistic about trade deals (there are positive and negative sides to everything). Just because your life isn't better doesn't means everyone else's isn't. There are lots of people in SA who are only getting running water, telephone lines, televisions, computers for the first time, in a country with such a discrepancy between 1st and 3rd world realities, that in itself is huge.

I'm afraid you're fighting a losing battle with this lot my friend. Trust me, you won't win. Not that this is about winning, but logical debate just isn't very important here. Some people are happier when things don't look promising. Thus they create their own negative reality.

 

[oronte]

I'm afraid you're fighting a losing battle with this lot my friend. Trust me, you won't win. Not that this is about winning, but logical debate just isn't very important here. Some people are happier when things don't look promising. Thus they create their own negative reality.

Thank you, I'm almost blue in the face. Although you're right - Schadenfreude - pleasure from misfortune. It seems to be the way of society today. Even when presented with evidence to the contrary people look for the tiny bit of negativity that will confirm that the world is an awful place.

 

[Hoof-Hearted]

I'm tired of arguing. Is everyone just incredibly short-sighted and pessimistic? (if you are then the world's always going to be awful for you, what you want to believe informs your reality) Infraco isn't going to happen tomorrow, but it will eventually. The AU doesn't work today but it will eventually. You're just being pessimistic about trade deals (there are positive and negative sides to everything). Just because your life isn't better doesn't means everyone else's isn't. There are lots of people in SA who are only getting running water, telephone lines, televisions, computers for the first time, in a country with such a discrepancy between 1st and 3rd world realities, that in itself is huge.

Maybe it's just me, but when someone tells me about things they have achieved or delivered, I actually want to see what they have achieved or delivered.... not some pie in the sky promises of potential. Until the potential is realised it might as well not exist.
Now I'm not attacking you, nor do I think I'm an overly pessimistic person, I just have a problem when things are made out to be successful when they really aren't. Here's an example:

Infraco isn't going to happen tomorrow, but it will eventually...

But it could have happened yesterday if not for the endless bungling by the relevant government departments, not to mention all the additional time wasted in adding additional carriages to the gravy train. By the time these fools eventually get their act together, Infraco will be obsolete technology
Where's the success in that?

 

[oronte]

I'm tired of talking and doing nothing about it. I've started a group on Facebook 'Diversify the Vote (South Africa), if you're on Facebook please have a look and join if you agree. The premise is that Jacob Zuma will probably be our next president but by voting and getting everyone we know to vote for opposition parties we can ensure that the ANC does not get a 2/3 majority (which would give them the ability to amend our constitution). I'm not against the ANC, but I think they wield too much power, Mbeki was relatively careful with it (although even now it's too much power for one party to have), but Zuma and his NEC may not do the same. It's a small step but democracy only works if we participate.

 

[kingmonty]

I'm tired of talking and doing nothing about it. I've started a group on Facebook 'Diversify the Vote (South Africa), if you're on Facebook please have a look and join if you agree. The premise is that Jacob Zuma will probably be our next president but by voting and getting everyone we know to vote for opposition parties we can ensure that the ANC does not get a 2/3 majority (which would give them the ability to amend our constitution). I'm not against the ANC, but I think they wield too much power, Mbeki was relatively careful with it (although even now it's too much power for one party to have), but Zuma and his NEC may not do the same. It's a small step but democracy only works if we participate.

Good luck.

 

[Flanders]

Did Leon have a gun to his head when saying these things? Just sounds a little "un-Leon" to me is all.

The current (desperate) optimism regarding Zuma as presidential candidate, in my opinion, reflects SA's general perception that he (Zuma) will perform where Mbeki has not - as has been discussed in depth in this thread already.

My personal feelings are that Zuma says what people want to hear for the sake of gaining popularity. Whether he follows up with action once elected is yet to be seen and this, I feel, shall be revealed from the get-go. I don't think we'll have to wait long to see his true colours.

I'm no fan of Mbeki and to be honest, my blood boils every time I see him holding hands with Mugarbage along with each and every moment of denial. Zuma, whether better suited to lead us or not, still has to face his trial. His appeal to not be tried surely loses him credibility, at least to the members of public with half a brain cell?! Bottom line is he must be tried and emerge innocent to be elligible to lead this country. At least, that's the way a democracy would have it.

 

[Rozier]

The mind boggles!! How a man (any man) with a track record like Zuma's could even be in the running for a job as a car guard is beyond my understanding. Let alone being a president, even of a banana republic, which is what this country has been reduced to over the last 14 years.

 

[PeterCH]

Really? Better? What are the issues that Mbeki's failed on (let's also recognise that he's also gotten a lot of things right)?
Zimbabwe - Zuma's said he doesn't care and won't do anything.
Aids - At least Mbeki was in denial. Zuma, the former head of the AIDS council, has uunprotected sex with multiple partners (a sterling example for SA's youth).
Crime - He claims to take it seriously, but only talks about it when he's talking to white people or organisations.
Let me take you back to when the ANC elected him - he told COSATU that he would stand up for worker's rights, the same week he went to big business and said nothing in SA would change. Yes, let's see how both will be happy with that.
People have a tendency to look at the things Mbeki did wrong and crucify him on that, he got a whole lot right too and give me a logical intellectual over an emotional one any day (emotion is dangerous in the person who leads your country).

I think AIDS denial is something far worse than having a shower. Zuma later said he was misquoted.

Zim - we don't want Zuma to support Robert M. That's good enough. Mbeki
was supporting him all the way. That's a step in the right direction.

Crime - Zuma will fill the policeforce with reservists from KwaZulu Natal,
possibly. That may be a good thing. Otherwise what else can Zuma say.
Look at what a dismal failure Mbeki's government has been if you
read what that De Lange guy said.

Zuma and workers/business - what he said is what anyone else can say.
Screwing over workers will upset them while screwing over business
may kill the golden goose which lays the eggs. Zuma has to pacify both.

I honestly don't think its up to Zuma. He's just one man.

 

[oronte]

I think AIDS denial is something far worse than having a shower. Zuma later said he was misquoted.

Zim - we don't want Zuma to support Robert M. That's good enough. Mbeki
was supporting him all the way. That's a step in the right direction.

Crime - Zuma will fill the policeforce with reservists from KwaZulu Natal,
possibly. That may be a good thing. Otherwise what else can Zuma say.
Look at what a dismal failure Mbeki's government has been if you
read what that De Lange guy said.

Zuma and workers/business - what he said is what anyone else can say.
Screwing over workers will upset them while screwing over business
may kill the golden goose which lays the eggs. Zuma has to pacify both.

I honestly don't think its up to Zuma. He's just one man.

AIDS - It is the gist of what he said, he then tried to make it a big joke, because this is something we should all be laughing about anyway. Mbeki has since reversed his stance, Zuma was the head of the AIDS council so him making jokes is a concern.
Crime - Didn't know about that one, hope there are lots of reservists and that they will want to work as police (sincerely hope they do).
Business - The issue is that he's two faced and tells people what they want to hear. As a future president he should be doing more than 'pacifying' he needs to come up with concrete ideas on making SA better. Talk is cheap.

I do agree it's not all up to him, but it is up to the people he selects. I sincerely hope Jozi's comments hold true and he listens to his 'comrades' because he just doesn't appear to have any capacity for intellectual thought (evidenced by his weak responses to questions put to him at public gatherings).

One good thing I read in the Sunday Tribune recently (sorry tried to find the story on IOL, but it's not there) is that he wants to decentralise power in the government and move powers away from the presidency, if he was honest about that (and we can't be sure what's true and what's not) then I might have some small measure of faith in him. In the same article he said he would only stand for president once, but later on he says that he would stand again 'if forced to' (duplicitous much?)

 

[Syndyre]

I think AIDS denial is something far worse than having a shower. Zuma later said he was misquoted.

Zim - we don't want Zuma to support Robert M. That's good enough. Mbeki
was supporting him all the way. That's a step in the right direction.

Crime - Zuma will fill the policeforce with reservists from KwaZulu Natal,
possibly. That may be a good thing. Otherwise what else can Zuma say.
Look at what a dismal failure Mbeki's government has been if you
read what that De Lange guy said.

Zuma and workers/business - what he said is what anyone else can say.
Screwing over workers will upset them while screwing over business
may kill the golden goose which lays the eggs. Zuma has to pacify both.

I honestly don't think its up to Zuma. He's just one man.

Basically he'll probably be bad but Mbeki may be worse.