Extra panels or Solar Geyser?

[Mike Hoxbig]

The idea of using your solar for heating water is not good.

Depending on the inverter and what mode it is in, it will consume "some" power from the grid, solar, and batteries.

I stated a million times now, that you should not cycle your batteries if it is not needed. The problem is that these people CANNOT UNDERSTAND THIS AT ALL. THERE WILL BE A SITUATION THAT WILL ALLOW THE INVERTER TO USE BOTH POWER FROM THE SOLAR PANELS AND THE BATTERY DEPENDING ON THE DAY.

BUT ACCORDING TO THEM, THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE. YET TODAY AS I GOT MY QUOTE THE INSTALLER WARNED ME ABOUT THIS EXACT SITUATION!

It is at this point they are misleading the public into believing that this can never happen. More so they refuse to believe that a 3.2Kwh load can drain a 9Kwh battery in a few hours if it doesn't get charged from solar or grid.

So who is the liar here? me? or them? you decide.

And what's wrong with using power from both the panels and batteries? The more utility, the less dependence on Eskom.

When it's done heating the geyser or whatever, the panels will charge the battery. Now you're using the panels instead of it sitting idle. Again, utility.

This is how you get the most out of your equipment, by putting it to use. Instead of your batteries sitting at 100% because of whatever paranoia is sitting in your head.

If you can't manage your loads in line with the equipment you have, that's on you. If you want your batteries sitting at 100% and your panels sitting idle, that's on you. But don't go spreading misinformation as if that's the correct way everyone should be doing it.

Factually speaking...

 

[newby_investor]

I find life easier when you just put @6174 on "ignore". He's the only one who is worried about geysers draining batteries. (I'm sure he makes sure to turn his geyser off before he charges his phone, lest the phone's battery get drained by powering the geyser.)

 

[Heisenborg]

I find life easier when you just put @6174 on "ignore". He's the only one who is worried about geysers draining batteries. (I'm sure he makes sure to turn his geyser off before he charges his phone, lest the phone's battery get drained by powering the geyser.)

Brand new mybb idiot. Most likely an alt account

++

 

[Pegging]

I find life easier when you just put @6174 on "ignore". He's the only one who is worried about geysers draining batteries. (I'm sure he makes sure to turn his geyser off before he charges his phone, lest the phone's battery get drained by powering the geyser.)

He is factually defeating strawmen with his feelings,

 

[leon.davibe]

No Brainer solar geyser. Get maximum use of the sun. Not strain on the Inverter, now will it be retrofit or PV.

Agree in SA
Ie i get a 250l tank to 38-40c with a diy collector of 1.18m3
So with another like that i should get up to temp

ie just over 2sq meters while you need pv 2-3panels that would be 4-6sq m

With limited good angle for pv roof space it makes more sense

Will when i do panels soon

Add a changeover switch and a contacter on final tank so that the second pre heat tank can only come on when the first one is on temp/off

So if batteries are full to use as dump load

 

[leon.davibe]

In early evening yes, later it discharges to 60% SoC. That's why I asked to see a pic of the system mode timer.

Posting the reply , if i encounter it later in thread i will delete it in case i forget about it, just reading the thread to learn as panels is next phase

Remember seeing a youtube clip from the guys at sunsynk saying on the system mode
It is important to have no gaps and full circle

ie end where you start and have no gaps inbetween

ie all 24hrs has to be accounted for in the 6 slots

I suppose it f***s with their if else statements

 

[Speedster]

Agree in SA
Ie i get a 250l tank to 38-40c with a diy collector of 1.18m3
So with another like that i should get up to temp

ie just over 2sq meters while you need pv 2-3panels that would be 4-6sq m

With limited good angle for pv roof space it makes more sense

Will when i do panels soon

Add a changeover switch and a contacter on final tank so that the second pre heat tank can only come on when the first one is on temp/off

So if batteries are full to use as dump load

Very bad advice. The maths has been covered ad nauseum in multiple threads though, so I'll just leave it there.

 

[leon.davibe]

No thermostat?

Or a thermostat that got stuck on arc

 

[Neo_X]

purchased my system in 2021, even though I had non-essentials as an option, I elected to not use it (for now)
recently, I only had 10 panels active (out of the 20) resulting in the below :
(geyser is on a timer, from 11am to 1pm, hence the consumption spike in the middle)

leaving system as is, my geyser uses ~17% of the battery cycle per day, which with rough napkin math over 10 years is max R12,000 of the battery value (and batteries will even run beyond that time... so even less)

Adding 10 more panels, obviously benefits the whole system, with battery barely being touched:


the whole reason of installing a solar system that you can expand according yo your needs, is that you invest either additonal panels, batteries, or even inverters, so that you can power your house as it is.
Yes there is gray areas (replace the stove with gas, Geyser with solar etc etc), which all affects the solar system sizing, but for now having peace of mind (if only for 24 hours) is a win in my book.

now just to wait for batteries to drop in price...need to go bigger

 

[Pegging]

What happens on day 2 of black skies?

The devil puts some of the people in prison.

Apocalypse 2 | DRC1752 Bible | YouVersion

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write: These things saith he, who holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks: I know thy works, and t

www.bible.com

 

[leon.davibe]

Sorry, not much time to read the whole thread so this may have already been covered, but depends on when you are pulling those extra units. For me I lacked storage. My battery was charged by 12 daily, and the rest of the day the panels would idle. My battery would then drop to my safety level by 8PM and I would pull from the grid a lot before the sun came up. Hence I saved more from adding a battery than more panels. By doubling up my battery storage I went from about 50% self provided to 90% self provided for the same number of panels. 36 panels sounds like a lot for that amount of battery so I suspect you may have the same issue. Problem is if your batteries are more than 6m old its not advisable to add new batteries with older batteries.

So check your production graphs and see what you could do. I also got smarter with my geyserwise. It allows not just time ranges but also temperature. I shower before work and leave home early so I used to turn the geyser on at 4AM to ensure I had hot water. It was heating it to 60 degrees though which pulls a lot of power. Now I heat the geyser to 45 degrees early on and then have it heat up to 60 once the sun is up and the batteries have had a chance to charge a bit. That saved a ton too. Often I still have enough heat in the geyser from the day before that its already over 45 at 4AM and it does not need to even turn on, or it just needs a short burst to get it up to 45 which is plenty for 2 showers tbh.

Agree for the most part

I think the new and old battery is a myth/old wives tales that needs more parameters

ie yes i would not mix lead acid old and new in a series string

But would in parralel setup

With lithium i would happily do it if the batteries are capacity tested and they are matched
Or if not adjusted shutdown voltage based on when lowest capacity battery hits its low mark if not sacrificing to much capacity

With lithium batteries in the correct voltage ie 48v battery not 4x12v i would happily pair an old battery with a brand spanking new one

Naturally cable lengths has to be exactly the same

Or have a cross flow if single cable from parralel batteries

The new one will just supply more of the load and the old one less

 

[SauRoNZA]

Agree in SA
Ie i get a 250l tank to 38-40c with a diy collector of 1.18m3
So with another like that i should get up to temp

ie just over 2sq meters while you need pv 2-3panels that would be 4-6sq m

With limited good angle for pv roof space it makes more sense

Will when i do panels soon

Add a changeover switch and a contacter on final tank so that the second pre heat tank can only come on when the first one is on temp/off

So if batteries are full to use as dump load

How long does that take?

The original argument was around if you have PV anyway is it worth going another route and then the consensus is not really.

It takes me less than one hour of peak PV time to have my geyser at 65-degrees.

 

[leon.davibe]

Right as useless as it is to explain why capacity is a thing and so on and so forth. Essentially what we learned today is a 12Kw solar battery can produce more power than the entire Eskom can if it was working. It will last forever and you can put stoves and geysers on it because the hybrid inverter will just know to turn the geyser off without installing anything to actually make it happen. Fcking Brilliant. Here we are paid by the hour to make stuff talk to other stuff using various sensors, controllers, and what all and what not.

View attachment 1488631

Solar if used correctly can be really good. But there have to be limits to ensure that stuff works and doesn't end up in a ball of flames.

I think many miss the point

You pay a chunk of cash for a lithium and an inverter

You do it cause you have to ie work from home, or just choose to not have to deal with the shedding headache

Now it is a straight up expense

If you add the panels which is actually chump change vs the rest

You roi the whole system

Saving 10-15k on panels is silly

You make sure you get enough panels to shrink the roi

And enjoy free energy after that

And with a decent solar aray
You can power your whole home geyser incl
With some contactors to prevent both from switching on at the same time
Timer is silly imo to manage two

Sure One timer and a contactor will do a better job
ie that way the 2nd tank can start heating the moment the one is done

Sure there may be shortfalls ie panels produce 3kw and your oven plus other essentials pull 3.5kw battery assists for a bit with 500w

And replenish when oven Is off again

So can imagine that while the sun is shining you can run it all of solar without touching the battery too deep

Sure some can't bear that hefty layout for that convenience

No reason not to let the sun shine on those that can

I certainly can't
I am doing it the budget way
In phases and some 2nd hand equipment (inverter)

I see the value in going solar hence why i am doig it by hook or by crook

Each has to decide which is his handy andy and sunlight liquid product

He ain't willing to compromise on

For many it is the joy of not needing to worry about loadshedding let them have their day in the sun

Sure for you it may be a book next to the pool/beach

Sure they won't confront you on the beach to say you can't read a book in the middle of the day , because they can't

 

[leon.davibe]

How long does that take?

The original argument was around if you have PV anyway is it worth going another route and then the consensus is not really.

It takes me less than one hour of peak PV time to have my geyser at 65-degrees.

I have a circ pump running that draws 20w and i have it on a timer from about 9-4pm

Had to choose eskom or mini panel to run the pump

Chose eskom since panels is coming

I dont have panels yet when i get i will definitely add the geysers on to top up
From sun

I would only do it if i get a bargain on evacuated tubes

Or can retrofit

Since if you have solar already for most the idle time of panels is cheaper to run the geyser than to buy a setup like this

If limited roof space is a thing
I would do evacuated tubes instead of 3 extra panels

Since smaller foot print

 

[leon.davibe]

Are those 1C?

That's why 2 of them

 

[leon.davibe]

No, I am not aware of anyone that dropped a cool million into solar. But I have seen R150k systems and R200k Systems and the biggest number to date was R300k. But that was for an industrial system that needed Three-phase.

Point is, it didn't cost R30k or R20k, or even R50k. This was a significant loan and many made this loan on top of their home loan that is valued over a million and up. So you can play this game all day long. But remember most people don't qualify for any loans at all. For them, these prices are still very high. Many are renting and they cannot just do what they want on the property. There is a lot to consider, but the people here pretend that these problems don't exist and that solar is dirt cheap.

So do we call that misinformation? False information? Or?

You don't have to go that expensive

Some choose to buy as they say the swiss army knife of inverters or the overpriced victron

they have heard many horror stories of the cheap installs backfiring

It is kinda like the story of the rich man and the poor man with the shoes

If you can afford it you buy the land cruiser it lasts longer
And thus over time is equivalent to 2 cheapies


Cheapies
will roi quicker though

So if it packs up after roi who cares

That can is kicked down the road

5kw cheapie 12-17k
Lithium 5kwh starter pack 25k
Panels R30k
That is R67-72k
sure you can end under R100k with install and sundries

If it packs up later you buy a nice one with the power savings

And also expand battery with the savings

They just buy where most end up anyway right from the get go

 

[leon.davibe]

Very bad advice. The maths has been covered ad nauseum in multiple threads though, so I'll just leave it there.

Math is based on variables

Sure if you have a big aray the math will tilt to the idle time of the panels

It is kinda like telling people change your bulbs for led and change other inefficient devices it saves a lot on being able to shrink the install
Yet the biggest consumer of our electricity is heating

If you get a solar geyser
And have gas stove
you may find a 3.6kw sunsynk is all you need

For some people not all

One persons
a is not your a
and so may be the case with his xyz

The roof space is a variable that matters to some

Evacuated tube takes up way less space than the panels needed to replace its function

Does the pv have it's advantages yes

If you can afford the cost
Then yes they are better in certain regards ie cold months

But they come at a cost of roof space inverter sizing

If you are gonna go big on pv already then yes it is better

But then you changed some variable and thus the math

There is no pv is better than thermal collectors period

It is better in scenario x

Thermal collectors are up to 70%efficient vs pv solar in the 20's

But this isn't what it is about it is a sum of all the variables

Just cause yours tilt to pv does not make a blanket statement right

 

[leon.davibe]

Horses for courses

A lot depends on your wallet
For many it is a situation of wanting to live a life as if nothing is wrong

They buy the biggest inverter pack they can, and batteries to match

once you do that

A little bit of math says put on a big array and make the costs back

Since they have a surplus the math to install a solar geyser is out of whack

Why not just use what i have

Many can't reach this budget

So if they want some of the same luxury , ie hot water if extended outage

Smaller inverter +battery+ panels just enough for critical loads ie no big surplus

The panel cost is not the only factor that affects this decision

They have to factor in a battery and inverter upgrade

Reducing the geyser cost (one of the biggest parts of our bill)

Cheaply with a retrofit

And having a gas stove (the other)

Can reduce the size of solar install

making the math for evacuated tube retrofit vs pv tilt the other way

 

[Snyper564]

I've been in these circles for a while now and must admit, I've never heard of anyone who dropped millions (or even a single million) on a residential solar install. Perhaps you can point us to those who have? I'd love to see what marvel they have installed.

Also, this thread was in the context of additional solar panels (i.e. the system is already in place), a non-trivial fact you seem to have completely ignored.

I echo this, I havent even heard the 300-500k range let alone million plus....

 

[leon.davibe]

I've been in these circles for a while now and must admit, I've never heard of anyone who dropped millions (or even a single million) on a residential solar install. Perhaps you can point us to those who have? I'd love to see what marvel they have installed.

Also, this thread was in the context of additional solar panels (i.e. the system is already in place), a non-trivial fact you seem to have completely ignored.

When i am in wilderness again i will post a photo of the view of a guys panels

Can't remember the quantity
I think it was 72 panels on a beach house

I suppose running 2 jacuzzis is critical /jk

But yea you don't need install of millions
To have a geyser on panels

imo the moment you go over R70k if cheapy inverter 80-90k
If better model

You are gonna feel the panels are idle time for the geyser to go on

And wasting extra money on solar geyser is stupid