20 May 1983

[George Cloney]

That's the kicker, incidents of white on black rape was simply unknown, if it ever happened.

Where do all the coloreds come from? They all willingly laid with the farmers?

 

[etienne_marais]

Where do all the coloreds come from? They all willingly laid with the farmers?

During the early days of the V.O.C. inter-racial marriage was tolerated. This was frowned upon by the racially supreme British. In fact the Netherlands was far ahead in many regards, including socially in those days. Just like people forgot about the racial aryan supremacy of Cecil John Rhodes and Alfred Milner and its knock-on effect, there are heaps of elements that point to a different history than the one the anglos and anglophiles have smugly come accustomed to.

 

[yebocan]

Where do all the coloreds come from? They all willingly laid with the farmers?

Actually,interracial marriage was not frowned upon during the early stages of the Dutch settlement. Early Cape church records serves as evidence of this.

 

[yebocan]

Where do all the coloreds come from? They all willingly laid with the farmers?

For a better insight into the above, I can highly recommend : A Political History of Coloured People...asks and tries to answer, who are coloured people....

http://jonathanball.bookslive.co.za...-the-coloured-people-by-richard-van-der-ross/

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I wonder if he's trolling?

Nah. Probably just blind to history and facts. He's decided it was better, so that's that. All evidence to the contrary be damned.

 

[Midnight_choir_drunk]

As I said, the NSA is better in ideology and theory and constitution. In practice it is a quagmire and soon to be hell on earth at the rate things are deteriorating.

What you're not getting is that things would have to deteriorate massively for white South Africans to be at a level that black South Africans under Apartheid would still consider an improvement. In very measurable ways that you take for granted things have drastically improved for black South Africans. Most families have electricity and running water now and televisions sets. Heck even mostly having shoes is a huge improvement. Most can afford to eat something other than samp and beans now even ! Relative Upotia as far as they are concerned.

The Anc shouldn't get the credit as most of this just happened naturally by allowing people to trade and move freely. That alone made our economy grow. Then of course the wealth re distribution, as much as I hate socialism, also played a role.

But this is silly talk. South Africa definitely must not deteriorate or keep heading down the road of populist socialism. What we need is to stop this blame game and all realise that the future can only be changed by our individual acts. We must educate ourselves, work hard, dream big and roll up our sleeves. Then nothing can stop this country reaching its massive potential.

 

[The Voice]

Actually,interracial marriage was not frowned upon during the early stages of the Dutch settlement. Early Cape church records serves as evidence of this.

Simon van der Stel - founder of Stellenbosch - wasn't White. He was half-White/half-Indian IIRC. Yeah, the Dutch weren't too concerned with mixing races. In fact, I'd go so far to say that a lot of White Afrikaaners, 400 years later, may not be as White as they'd like to think.

 

[Nick333]

Indeed. I remember speaking to an elderly Black lady whom I worked with: she said she had it better under the Nats. Health care was better, as were the grants her family received. Of course, restrictions on movement, etc, was one of many reasons they fought to be free, but the South Africa they got in return wasn't what they expected. I asked why she still voted ANC, then. She said that no matter what, Whites could never, ever be allowed to run South Africa again. So my info came straight from the horse's mouth.

During apartheid we had strict border control. There was no xenophobia because we didn't have 30 million extra foreigners running around "taking locals' jobs". Yes, those jobs were menial but they were jobs, regardless - now they have nothing. We also didn't have strikes, weekly, crippling the economy. Nor did we have load shedding.

And the self-enrichment of our politicians? Anyone's deluded if they think they're now wealthy through any hard work of their own. They've stolen millions under the guise of tenders and will continue to do so.

And my age? I'm old enough to have lived in both South Africa's.

Yes, I've heard the same and also from under educated older people. The truth, I think, is that they do have it quite a bit better now, freedom aside. An indisputable fact is that many black people under 40 are much better off than they would have been under apartheid. They are better educated despite our crappy education system, they have access to jobs and opportunities they would never have had under apartheid and, in a much more accommodating economy. There are far more RDP houses being built and even though they are of a lower quality than apartheid era homes they are still miles ahead of living in a shack. There has definitely massive economic improvement for blacks and it has a knock on effect throughout society. The problem is it could have all been done a lot better.

I think what the elderly and poorest of the poor have is rose tinted glasses for an era when black people had less but, also less responsibility. Domestic work may have been long and hard for not much pay but at least you knew you would get paid, afford your very basic needs and if you got sick you could go to a well run clinic or hospital.

And, you got a couple of weeks off to go to your mothers funeral every year.

/runs

 

[yebocan]

Simon van der Stel - founder of Stellenbosch - wasn't White. He was half-White/half-Indian IIRC. Yeah, the Dutch weren't too concerned with mixing races. In fact, I'd go so far to say that a lot of White Afrikaaners, 400 years later, may not be as White as they'd like to think.

Genealogy of Afrikaners

Exhaustive research was carried out by Professor JA Heese for his book Die Herkoms van die Afrikaner (The Origins of Afrikaners) published in 1971. Professor Heese studied parish registers and numerous other sources to track down how many European (Dutch and German, mainly) settlers married non-European brides.

Between 1652 and 1800 over 1200 marriages were performed between white and 'black' or white and 'mixed blood' people. By that figure Professor Heese determined that approximately 7.2% of Afrikaner heritage is non-white. (Similar studies have suggested this might be as much as 10% in reality).

Professor Heese suggested a genetic mix for the average Afrikaner to be: 35.5% Dutch, 34.4% German, 13.9% French, 7.2% African/Asian/Khoi, 2.6% British, 2.6% Other European, and 3.5% undetermined. Hardly the ancestry you'd expect from such ardent segregationalists

http://africanhistory.about.com/od/southafrica/p/AfrikanerGene.htm

 

[Galactica]

Black people could go into many safe areas of the country and not be afraid of being murdered/raped. Now there are no safe areas.

I think a black person would rather prefer the fear of getting murdered by a random criminal than the fear of getting murdered by police who had full permission from the state to do so.

 

[Cray]

I think a black person would rather prefer the fear of getting murdered by a random criminal than the fear of getting murdered by police who had full permission from the state to do so.

+1

 

[Albereth]

Better for whites or better for the country as a whole?

Both.

Do you think that we would be better off (whether white or the whole country) if the Nats were still running Eskom?

And don't worry - I'm not going to say that your answer would be used in anyway to justify the return of apartheid.

 

[Albereth]

I think a black person would rather prefer the fear of getting murdered by a random criminal than the fear of getting murdered by police who had full permission from the state to do so.

The police never had full permission from the state to murder black people.

And you can probably thank Cecil John Rhodes for that.

 

[etienne_marais]

Quote Originally Posted by Beerisgood View Post
Black people could go into many safe areas of the country and not be afraid of being murdered/raped. Now there are no safe areas.

I think a black person would rather prefer the fear of getting murdered by a random criminal than the fear of getting murdered by police who had full permission from the state to do so.

Yet blacks flocked en masse to white areas or vicinity of whites areas rather than get away as far as possible from evil whitey. Besides, what about whites who lived in safe areas, what about that they prefer to continue living in safety rather than a hodgepodge of cultures where life has little sanctity ?

 

[Galactica]

What you're not getting is that things would have to deteriorate massively for white South Africans to be at a level that black South Africans under Apartheid would still consider an improvement. In very measurable ways that you take for granted things have drastically improved for black South Africans. Most families have electricity and running water now and televisions sets. Heck even mostly having shoes is a huge improvement. Most can afford to eat something other than samp and beans now even ! Relative Upotia as far as they are concerned.

The Anc shouldn't get the credit as most of this just happened naturally by allowing people to trade and move freely. That alone made our economy grow. Then of course the wealth re distribution, as much as I hate socialism, also played a role.

Rubbish. Many of those who can afford to eat something other than samp and beans are able to do so because the ANC government gives them social grants. People have that electricity because of the ANC's deliberate programme to electrify black areas that the previous government didn't care about. The same applies to running water. Many blacks are better off economically because of legislation which allows them to work in careers and organisations in which they were not allowed to work in before, legislation introduced by the ANC. Don't let your dislike for the ANC lead you to lying and/or rewriting/whitewashing history. Nothing we see today "just happened". :erm:

 

[Albereth]

Simon van der Stel - founder of Stellenbosch - wasn't White. He was half-White/half-Indian IIRC. Yeah, the Dutch weren't too concerned with mixing races. In fact, I'd go so far to say that a lot of White Afrikaaners, 400 years later, may not be as White as they'd like to think.

There was a book released in the 70's about Super Afikaaners that supported what you are saying.

However, Simon van der Stel was not the father of all of the progeny arising from the Cape. He set the tone for the establishment of a colony, the people who populated the ranks of colonists would have been from a variety of backgrounds, many of which would have included 'pure' whites.

 

[Galactica]

Yet blacks flocked en masse to white areas or vicinity of whites areas rather than get away as far as possible from evil whitey. Besides, what about whites who lived in safe areas, what about that they prefer to continue living in safety rather than a hodgepodge of cultures where life has little sanctity ?

So you wanted blacks' movement to be restricted in their own country? The fact that we can speak of "white areas" in an African country is where this whole absurdity started. Whites who don't want to live in a "hodgepodge of cultures" shouldn't be in Africa.

 

[pam32]

During the early days of the V.O.C. inter-racial marriage was tolerated. This was frowned upon by the racially supreme British. In fact the Netherlands was far ahead in many regards, including socially in those days. Just like people forgot about the racial aryan supremacy of Cecil John Rhodes and Alfred Milner and its knock-on effect, there are heaps of elements that point to a different history than the one the anglos and anglophiles have smugly come accustomed to.

British noticed negative changes:

Health and Behavior Risks of Adolescents with Mixed-Race Identity
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448064/

 

[Midnight_choir_drunk]

Rubbish. Many of those who can afford to eat something other than samp and beans are able to do so because the ANC government gives them social grants. People have that electricity because of the ANC's deliberate programme to electrify black areas that the previous government didn't care about. The same applies to running water. Many blacks are better off economically because of legislation which allows them to work in careers and organisations in which they were not allowed to work in before, legislation introduced by the ANC. Don't let your dislike for the ANC lead you to lying and/or rewriting/whitewashing history. Nothing we see today "just happened". :erm:

Anyone can distribute other peoples money to win votes. There is no talent or philanthropy in that. I don't hate the Anc so much as I hate governments who try put themselves into every aspect of peoples lives. I am a small government and private enterprise type of guy. For pragmatic reasons I think the welfare state is a terrible idea.

Privatise eskom and it would be sorted in a year. The private sector is corrupt but it is accountable to economic realities. Governments are accountable to peoples flights of fancy and political spin and corruption in them in universally rife.

 

[The Voice]

There was a book released in the 70's about Super Afikaaners that supported what you are saying.

However, Simon van der Stel was not the father of all of the progeny arising from the Cape. He set the tone for the establishment of a colony, the people who populated the ranks of colonists would have been from a variety of backgrounds, many of which would have included 'pure' whites.

Indeed. But remember that many colonists had no interest in staying - van Riebeek included, who hated it here. They wanted to set up the base station for the VoC, then head back home. Van der Stel's exploration basically opened the door for others, so I guess he was a pioneer in a way. A non-White pioneer, and "colonist" - unlike what JZ would like the masses to believe.