2004 ICASA complaint

Tharaxis · Mar 13, 2004

You'll notice that yet again Telkom cited bandwidth costs as a reason for charging such high rental rates.

They're shooting themselves in the foot, BANDWIDTH IS NOT TELKOM THE TELEPHONE COMPANY'S REALM, THAT IS THE REALM OF SAIX, A SEPARATE ENTITY.

This is yet again a blatant admission of cross-subsidisation, if they weren't cross-subsidising there should be a switch in the costs involved, low line rental (because honestly, the ports CANNOT cost as much as Telkom wishes for you to believe - the cards may be expensive, but when they are capable of holding upwards of 256 connections they end up paying for themselves), and higher ISP rates. ISP's are where the competition should be, as it stands, no ISP is capable of competing due to the backwards pricing structure Telkom employes. If on the other hand Telkom was charging "the right way around", and ISP rates were R680 you would see a lot more competition, and likely a price war, equating to less overall cost in broadband connectivity.

Karnaugh · Mar 13, 2004

I belive Telkom have 1024 port DSLAMS

<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."

NetLink Research

Tharaxis · Mar 13, 2004

Also, the Markinor survey was supposedly only involving 200 people, which is ridiculous.

Out of 16000 users they took 1.25% of the total (which they hand picked), found that 88% of them were happy with the service (no shock there), and then states that the majority are happy. If they wanted a relatively accurate picture, they should have at LEAST taken 25-50% of the users and done the survey, AND it should not have been Telkom deciding who gets chosen. They can easily see who are under and who are over users of the service, and therefore those who experience capped speeds frequenly, and those who don't. It's all to do with profiling, and with those profiles Telkom can manipulate any requests for information.

BTTB · Mar 13, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I belive Telkom have 1024 port DSLAMS <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Possibly that is correct. I'm not sure.
The reason I say 256 is, when the techie from telkom installed ADSL he clearly told me in August last year that I was user number 5 out of 256. What that meant Im not sure, but I assumed he must of meant the number of ports. [

]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

BTTB · Mar 13, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Also, the Markinor survey was supposedly only involving 200 people, which is ridiculous.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Can someone clarify this point, as I remember reading a figure of 800 odd. 880 comes to mind. If this is true I must adjust my statistics.
[

]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Tharaxis · Mar 13, 2004

OK, here's more, I did some searching on ADSL Line Card Prices (the cards that hold the numerous ports), and this is what I came across:

http://isp-planet.com/cplanet/tech/001102coppermtn.htm

According to this, you're looking at a 24 port line card (admittedly ADSL over ISDN, not ADSL over POTS) for $12995 - NOTE: this price was back in 2001, it's likely a lot lower now - which is about $541 per port (which in Rands comes to R3662.57), so for those of us who have had ADSL for more than 4 months, we've effectively paid off our ports, anything else is now pure profit.

BTTB · Mar 13, 2004

Type this into a google search and see the amount of Section 100 complaints their are.
icasa section 100 complaint
Just read a few like this one for example. http://www.dispatch.co.za/2002/07/11/business/ATAT.HTM

Im not sure what to make of a Section 100 complaint, but MyADSL has hardly the ability to take telkom to court even after a successful campaign. As this is what seems to be the norm if you want any joy out of telkom. Telkom behave like Advocates and leave every last issue to the last second before resolving anything. Hoping that you will either run out of steam or money. Also at the same time enjoying the monopoly status ad hoc.
I would suggest a very tactful approach to ICASA in this regard as we either need legal aid supplied by the public protector, ICASA or the state or continue to keep challenging telkom from a consumers point of view. The latter will be cheaper and might have a better result especially if the media is behind you. Litigation, IMO is not the way to go. Telkom will use our money to pay for their legal team to block us at every turn.

If the legal route is needed, considering that Telkom regards us as "a consumer complaint", we should ask the Public Protector to intervene at that stage if we have no resolution. RPM, I have all the details for the Public Protector. An advocate will contact you and discuss the situation with you. Remember that the Public Protector only intervenes if no resolution can be achieved through normal channels. And they way I see Telkom, that does not fit into their vocabulary.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Tharaxis · Mar 13, 2004

Here's more, I was able to find a Zyxel price list on the Internet (Google!!!), listing the prices for various xDSL Solutions, here are the pertinent line card prices (in USD), and are dated September 2003:

ALC-1024 24 ports Annex A ADSL line card. 2,300.00
SLC-1024 24 ports G.SHDSL line card. 4,130.00
VLC-1012 12 ports VDSL line card. 1,610.00

Now, while these cards are unlikely what Telkom uses, one can expect these to be relatively indicative of current market prices, so lets review (Prices are calculated at R6.77 to the USD):

ALC-1024:

24 ports @ $2300 equates to $95.83 per port, or R648.77 per port.

SLC-1024:

24 ports @ $4130 equates to $172.08 per port, or R1164.98 per port.

VLC-1012:

12 ports @ $1610 equates to $134.17 per port, or R894.79 per port.

Even at the most expensive option (which Telkom unlikely uses, they probably use a standard Annex A ADSL Card), Telkom makes their money back in just over a month, from any one user. One can also subsequently say that they likely pay off the card in just over a month as well, as the cards are likely full.

Even if Telkom was going for a high quality solution (HAHAHAHAHA), they could not be paying more than double the amount. Which just means their ROI of 1.5 months becomes a ROI of 3 months... not a big difference [

]

BTTB · Mar 13, 2004

Im sure ICASA will determine that Telkom is cross subsidising line rentals with modems, ISP charges and general profiteering. But will we be able to get our money back or at least get a reduction in prices. This is one of the questions on everyones lips.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

kaspaas · Mar 13, 2004

Evaluation of Telkom response

Please note: I'm suggesting that we follow another route as well:

As consumergroup we can request ICASA to rule that ISP's must publish on their websites key data that would allow consumers to make informed decisions and enforce their rights for all types of Internet connetivity offered. Such requests can be handled by the Board of ICASA (in consultation with ISP's and consumer groups) and could completed in months rather than years. It essential such groups have to agree on which data. I believe that the best approach would be to initially request the minimum to which we agree easily. The wider the request, the more red herrings can be chucked at it and the longer the process is going to take.

1. Cost of modems

Telkom does not explain why their modems are much more expensive than competive models.

I reckon this point is actually one that could be dropped - the others are stronger

2. Cost of line rental

Telkom confuses the issue of line rental (ie Infrastructural costs - copper, cards, ports etc) with that of bandwidth costs.

Telkom does not explain why the cost of "infrastructure" is the bulk of the cost.

Telkom does not explain how ADSL suppliers in other countries could supply much higher speed infrastructure at lower costs to clients.

MyADSL:
The line rental for ADSL is very high and unnecessary....

Telkom answers that the cost of bandwidth is high...

Telkom fails to provide examples of other International Telco's who charge infrastructure fees and their rates. (eg the German Telco)

MyADSL:
ADSL Business users can see no reason why the additional line rental for businesses should be higher than that for home users. The service is, after all, exactly the same.

Telkom:
No answer.

MyADSL:
The reason for the high cost ADSL in South Africa was blamed partly on
the high cost of International bandwidth. This was the case when the
Rand was still over R 10-00 to the dollar. The strengthening of the Rand should have provided us with either a decrease in cost or increase in service, but this was not the case.

Telkom:
No answer.

MyADSL:
The ADSL service was initially sold as “Superfast Internet Access”, which mislead many people to believe that the service is comparable to ADSL in other countries....

Telkom introduced traffic shaping (port prioritization) without notifying users. We feel that users should be consulted and notified about changes in the service that will influence the functionality of the service....

Telkom:
The Markinor survey is offered as answer. We know that Telkom offered the results, but refuses to make it known.

Could ICASA request Telkom to substantiate the claims by handing over the complete Markinor report?

MyADSL:

... and we believe ICASA should enforce this standard to safeguard users against abuse from Telkom.

Possibly we should formally request ICASA to rule that all ISP's offering internet connectivity to the general public must publish on their websites the following data:

Connection type Speed Contention ratio local Contention ratio International
eg
Dial-Up 56kbits/s 20:1 or better 50:1 or better
ADSL (uncapped) 512/256kbits/s 20:1 or better 100:1 or better
ADSL (Capped) 512/256kbits/s 20:1 or better 300:1 or better
ISDN 64kb/s ...........
etc

Such information will enable consumers to compare the services offered by ISP's in a meaningful way when deciding which ISP to use.

Please note this is a request to ICASA from a group of concerned Internet consumers/users which should be applicable to all ISP's eg M-Web, Tiscali, @lantic and Telkom.

As this will be a request for minimum data, it leaves the door open for ISP's to provide better data as part of their marketing drive. (eg: Our International link is 99% of the time less than 80% busy)

MyADSL:
ADSL customers can, for example, not even alter their own passwords if
they detect fraud or misuse of their account.

Telkom:
No answer.

Myadsl:
is also impossible for users to detect account abuse, which has been proven to happen with the ADSL service.

Telkom:
No response.

MyADSL:
...international Internet usage becomes nearly impossible when capped.

Telkom:
No response.

Please note, that this issue could be cleared if the suggested request above on the publciation of contention ratios is enforced by ICASA.

MyADSL:
and we feel that only international traffic should count towards the cap.

Telkom:
No explantion why International and Local traffic can't be separated when measuring bandwidth.

MyADSL:
we feel that there should be a well structured service agreement in place between Telkom and the user. This service agreement should include issues like contention ratios, service availability and support.

Telkom:
"Best Effort Service" excuse.

Again I believe we should request ICASA to rule that all ISP's must publish a Service Level Agreement for all services offered.

At least the following has to be stated on the web:

Availability of support helpline
Escalation procedure if support is experienced to be insufficient

Availability of service (eg no more than 10 hours downtime per month; max 2 hours per incident)

Penalties when failing to meet these standards

ICASA could require minimum standards on this before issuing a license for a service.

I'm sure others could add more to this.

Another note: Telkom offers no explantion why they are offering only a bottomline service compared to the rest of the world.

Thanks RPM!

Your efforts on our behalf is starting to get somewhere

South Africa needs World Class Broadband at World Competitive Prices.

BTTB · Mar 13, 2004

Telkoms reply to MyADSL was late and incomplete to say the least.
A last minute "best effort service" to shut ICASA up.
MyADSL has spent several months compiling the complaint and it appears if Telkom took an afternoon as it wasn’t very well though out and certainly doesn’t come near answering the complaint.
ICASA should demand a point by point reply from Telkom and set down another deadline. Perhaps they should specify the questions they want Telkom to answer as Telkom is dodging the content in the complaint.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Peapod · Mar 13, 2004

Dont faint - its the illusive one.
I have been keeping my eye on your excellent progress - thanks RPM for keeping me in the loop.
DO NOT LET UP ON PRESSURE. A legal tactic that works brilliantly is to literally flood both Telkom and ICASA with documentation supporting each and evey claim you have. This is both independently as individual customers and as a forum. Drag data off the net, argue each and every point with solid backup.
Make these complaints through formal channels. They have to respond to each and every one, and where they dont, escalate it higher up the chain each time.
Sooner or later, either Telkom or ICASA's acountants, preferably both, will realise their budget is being anhialated by repetitive and unsolved complaints. Someone up the ladder at board level will make a decision to act and act they will to protect the P&L.
Either way they go, the press will have a field day.
For Telkom, this is BAD NEWS in light of the SNO developments quietly taking place in the background.
I am still plugging away at Parliamentary level and will revert as soon as there is anything to report. If you think its slow going with Telkom and ICASA, try the ministry for communications.
All strength to you and keep up the amazing effort. We are all winning, slowly but surely.
All the best
Peapod

awangus · Mar 13, 2004

Point 1.1 If that is the case Telkom should stop "manufacturing" (i do not believe they do) local MODEMS as imported ROUTERS are cheaper and have better warranty.

Point 1.2 The cost of line rentals is just an excuse that a hugely inefficient organization like Tekom uses all the time. There is one way Telkom can prove the point: remove the monopoly and allow other operators to compete on a 1:1 basis with Telkom. I find it amazing that Telkom is still using the tactics of the past to bulsh*t everybody in this country. Telkom -remove your stranglehold on this country and let it be free of your repressive monopoly. That is the only way costs will be reduced and the country (ie the users) will benefit. I do not believe you for one second.

Point 2. So what you are saying is that 22% of the 16000 users know how to look for and evaluate your trashy ADSL performance? I would say that is an excellent response to confirn the point that ADSL service is sub standard, even against ISDN. International companies would hang their heads in shame if 5% responded that the service was bad. Shame on you Telkom. Do you think that all of us are such idiots. Yes, you must think so and that is why you treat us as such.

The facts are you are dead scared of competition and are just milking the country for as long as you can, regardless of the cost to the nation. An example is your continued promotion of the outdated ISDN service to all the ignorants out there who do not realise that the bill is going to kill them.

Your reputation as a monopolistic and repressive service is keeping $billions from entering the country and that is a fact that you and the government cannot hide, no matter what rubbish you tell us.

This debate and argument will only end the day the government has the guts to free the people from your clutches.

BTTB · Mar 13, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">22% of the 16000<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How did you get these figures?

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Karnaugh · Mar 13, 2004

http://www.karnaugh.za.net/techblog/archives/000004.html

Writing up a reply to send to ICASA about Telkom's poor response. Your comments, I'd like to get in everything people are concerned about.

<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."

NetLink Research

awangus · Mar 13, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BTTB
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">22% of the 16000<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How did you get these figures?

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ag man, I was so mad to read the Telkom response I did not read that right. Just saw red.

Re: prices of hardware. Telkom buy all their hardware direct from the factories overseas at discounted prices. So do not take local prices.

awangus · Mar 13, 2004

Watch those votes on the article at ITWeb. So far 36 votes and Telkom still to get 1.

paarlberg · Mar 13, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Andre
 The exact hardware costs at the exchange would be interesting to pursue. Each card in the DSLAM contains a number of ports. How many I don't recall. If Telkom is making you pay for your port, how long before it's been paid for? Obviously Telkom expects you to keep paying for as long as you have DSL.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You can buy a Lucent Stinger DSLAM that supports 300+ ADSL/SDSL/IDSL subscribers for $5000-$10000 depending on the model. All they have to do is provision the line and cross connect.. Of course they have to configure the Equipment, but there are management utilities that can simplify the configuration tasks.. Not rocket science..

BTTB · Mar 13, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Ag man, I was so mad to read the Telkom response I did not read that right. Just saw red.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ok. A common feeling around these threads. [

]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

BTTB · Mar 13, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Watch those votes on the article at ITWeb. So far 36 votes and Telkom still to get 1.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And if you do see a Yes, dont throw Mr White away who could be skulking around on these threads.[

][

]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Join the MyBroadband community

Get started

2004 ICASA complaint

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Executive Member

Executive Member

Senior Member

Executive Member

Senior Member

Executive Member

Expert Member

Executive Member

Expert Member

Member

Executive Member

Banned

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Executive Member

Executive Member