360 hard drive.

[Lemon369]

@Dolby : Ridiculous statement (REF : PS3 not packaging HD panel's with their console)...again, it's reflecting where probably rather smart people become ranting idiots because of an unreasonable affection to a console...firstly, we are talking about a CONSUMER ELECTRONIC PRODUCT, it has a purpose and a broader set of features - The purpose is to providing a gaming and media platform in a home entertainment centre...features are : provides HD output, HD Decoder, Surround Sound output and decoding.

Whether you choose to use the features is up to an individual. *Gotta listen to this part* ...The hard-drive is not a feature, it is a component necessary to support the purpose of the product.

If you don't get the Forza 3 issue...if you don't get the fact that how do Arcade owners install game patches like 'borderlands' that was just released to fix some really critical defects, then you don't get the concept of products, but each to his own....

Comparing a console to a car is do-able, but not when you're using flawed logic... with cars you can choose option extra's, but you expect every car sold to have windscreen wipers, spare tyre, carpeting on the floors and door handles even though none of these are necessary to drive a car and use it for it's purpose...


@Tim : R3000 might not, but R500 more can definitely get you both...and in terms of value, u getting a dvd upscaler, blu-ray player, media centre with wireless connectivity and best console FPS on the market....worth it if you ask me...

 

[semiautomatix]

@Tim : R3000 might not, but R500 more can definitely get you both...and in terms of value, u getting a dvd upscaler, blu-ray player, media centre with wireless connectivity and best console FPS on the market....worth it if you ask me...

You do realise that I only have R3k in my wallet. A 40" LCD is probably a bit out of my price range, I probably don't have a high speed broadband connection or media PC. So I'm now spending up to R1500 more than anticipated for something I can't use.

Why don't you Sony people get it. There are still people out there that can't afford a PS3. Your solution can't be to throw more money at it, since there is none! As such, an XBox 360 is in their price range. Microsoft know this, and are cornering the entry level hardcore gamers.

And your option of R3.5k for a PS3 and game is not realistic.

 

[semiautomatix]

@Dolby : Ridiculous statement (REF : PS3 not packaging HD panel's with their console)...again, it's reflecting where probably rather smart people become ranting idiots because of an unreasonable affection to a console...firstly, we are talking about a CONSUMER ELECTRONIC PRODUCT, it has a purpose and a broader set of features - The purpose is to providing a gaming and media platform in a home entertainment centre...features are : provides HD output, HD Decoder, Surround Sound output and decoding.

Whether you choose to use the features is up to an individual. *Gotta listen to this part* ...The hard-drive is not a feature, it is a component necessary to support the purpose of the product.

If you don't get the Forza 3 issue...if you don't get the fact that how do Arcade owners install game patches like 'borderlands' that was just released to fix some really critical defects, then you don't get the concept of products, but each to his own....

Comparing a console to a car is do-able, but not when you're using flawed logic... with cars you can choose option extra's, but you expect every car sold to have windscreen wipers, spare tyre, carpeting on the floors and door handles even though none of these are necessary to drive a car and use it for it's purpose...

In the case of XBox 360 it is not. No amount of shouting "It is!" till you're blue in the face is going to make an ounce of difference if in reality it just isn't. If it were the case millions of PS2s wouldn't have sold.

In the car metaphor the HDD is like a radio. Every car can have one installed. It really makes life much better to have it installed. You can choose different types of radios to install. But at the end of the day you don't have to have it to drive the car from A to B (it's primary purpose). The CPU, memory, motherboard, GPU are like tyres, doors and the engine. These are standard, they can't (shouldn't) be changed and are mandatory to drive the car from A to B.

 

[Dolby]

@Dolby : Ridiculous statement (REF : PS3 not packaging HD panel's with their console)...again, it's reflecting where probably rather smart people become ranting idiots because of an unreasonable affection to a console...firstly, we are talking about a CONSUMER ELECTRONIC PRODUCT, it has a purpose and a broader set of features - The purpose is to providing a gaming and media platform in a home entertainment centre...features are : provides HD output, HD Decoder, Surround Sound output and decoding

I have an aquaitance at work with an Aracde (no HDD yet though) - he's got about 15 titles of his own. I'll speak to him, but I'm pretty sure each and every one those titles work.

He often borrows titles from me - and again, each and every title works. That's 100% of everything he owns, that works.

What makes it better, is that he bought the console for ... games.

 

[Lemon369]

We can say that the Arcade delivers the "basic" gaming experience to the user.

I'm sorry, basic gaming experience on a hardcore gaming platform..OK, so just to understand....basic gaming experience means :

1. You will not be able to play content across multiple disks (e.g. Forza 3, so fewer cars and courses for you my friend cos you are a basic gamer)
2. You will not be able to download any DLC content even when you find that one game you love from our store cos you are a basic gamer
3. You will not be able to *patch* any of your games cos you are a basic gamer (e.g. Borderlands but likely to be far buggier games released in the near future where patches resolve critical defects)
4. You will not be able to save replays to watch again or show anyone cos you a basic gamer.
5. You will not be able to download any exclusive XBL releases cos you are a basic gamer.

5. You will not be able to do anything more than basic stuff cos you are an ARCADE gamer.

I've been gaming from the mid-80's and my first pc (an 4.77mhz AT IBM), i can tell you that loading patches for games is a basic need !

FAIL post RPG and FAIL decision by MS !

 

[semiautomatix]

I'm sorry, basic gaming experience on a hardcore gaming platform..OK, so just to understand....basic gaming experience means :

1. You will not be able to play content across multiple disks (e.g. Forza 3, so fewer cars and courses for you my friend cos you are a basic gamer)
2. You will not be able to download any DLC content even when you find that one game you love from our store cos you are a basic gamer
3. You will not be able to *patch* any of your games cos you are a basic gamer (e.g. Borderlands but likely to be far buggier games released in the near future where patches resolve critical defects)
4. You will not be able to save replays to watch again or show anyone cos you a basic gamer.
5. You will not be able to download any exclusive XBL releases cos you are a basic gamer.

5. You will not be able to do anything more than basic stuff cos you are an ARCADE gamer.

I've been gaming from the mid-80's and my first pc (an 4.77mhz AT IBM), i can tell you that loading patches for games is a basic need !

FAIL post RPG and FAIL decision by MS !

You can play many games with multiple discs using a memory card.

The guys who have bought an Arcade probably aren't interested/can't afford DLC.

You can use the memory card for some patches.

Basic/Arcade gamers are just that, someone who can't afford to be otherwise but enjoys their gaming. Once again, throwing money at the problem is not an option.

Microsoft has cornered the entry level hardcore market as a result of their decisions, so I hardly think your "FAIL" is justified because you personally fail to understand the market.

Finally, where were the PS1/PS2/XBox patches? They didn't exist because 90% of the time console developers make sure they get the game correct before release. It's what makes the games more expensive than PC games, more testing and a longer cycle to ensure close to perfect games that don't require patches.

 

[RPG_Fan]

I have an aquaitance at work with an Aracde (no HDD yet though) - he's got about 15 titles of his own. I'll speak to him, but I'm pretty sure each and every one those titles work.

He often borrows titles from me - and again, each and every title works. That's 100% of everything he owns, that works.

What makes it better, is that he bought the console for ... games.

And he will get to play the games he likes. Just not every part of it. What really gets me is that you are never really informed that getting the Arcade can inhibit your gaming experience. Nothing like say "you have to fork over R1000 to enjoy the remaining 10% of the game". Lets not even go into the "subcription fees" part of it.
Lets put it this way, if you want access to everything that M$ has to offer, the total cost of ownership will be much higher....something that most people don't really look at.

 

[Lemon369]

In the case of XBox 360 it is not. No amount of shouting "It is!" till you're blue in the face is going to make an ounce of difference if in reality it just isn't. If it were the case millions of PS2s wouldn't have sold.

So it really comes down to our difference in opinions of what is mandatory in a 7th gen. gaming console...Wii's casual games don't require it, but the games that we know is destined for the 360 both as exclusives and multi-plats are AAA titles that pushes the boundaries of technology...they normally have at least 1 major patch, are huge in size(and benefit from installs) and provide great DLC for achieve longevity for the customer.

To not have those options is NOT an option in my book, i will never let any of my friends or family buy an ARCADE...simple...

I don't have an xbox, i don't intend buying one (only because the PS3 and my PC satisfies all my gaming needs)...so it i'm not upset, got nothing to shout about...i'm just saying it was stupid by MS...so not sure where u getting the 'shouting' comment...

As far as i'm concerned, if i have to be blunt, i hope MS sells 20 million Arcades...and I can watch in with some satisfaction the fall of a gaming giant when gaming titles or distribution models over the next 2 years really rely on a hdd...

 

[semiautomatix]

So it really comes down to our difference in opinions of what is mandatory in a 7th gen. gaming console...Wii's casual games don't require it, but the games that we know is destined for the 360 both as exclusives and multi-plats are AAA titles that pushes the boundaries of technology...they normally have at least 1 major patch, are huge in size(and benefit from installs) and provide great DLC for achieve longevity for the customer.

To not have those options is NOT an option in my book, i will never let any of my friends or family buy an ARCADE...simple...

So you've decided to subsidise them if they can't afford anything else? Wow, how philanthropic of you. Or will you just tell them to wait another two years and rather sit at home and watch Generations reruns until they can afford otherwise?

I don't have an xbox, i don't intend buying one (only because the PS3 and my PC satisfies all my gaming needs)...so it i'm not upset, got nothing to shout about...i'm just saying it was stupid by MS...so not sure where u getting the 'shouting' comment...

As far as i'm concerned, if i have to be blunt, i hope MS sells 20 million Arcades...and I can watch in with some satisfaction the fall of a gaming giant when gaming titles or distribution models over the next 2 years really rely on a hdd...

And you know what? After saving up for a further two years, these Arcade owners now have the money to buy a HDD. Well roger me sideways and call me Sally. So instead of waiting three years for a console they bought and Arcade and upgraded at their leisure and when they were able. Once again you fail to understand the market, unlike Microsoft.

 

[semiautomatix]

And he will get to play the games he likes. Just not every part of it. What really gets me is that you are never really informed that getting the Arcade can inhibit your gaming experience. Nothing like say "you have to fork over R1000 to enjoy the remaining 10% of the game". Lets not even go into the "subcription fees" part of it.
Lets put it this way, if you want access to everything that M$ has to offer, the total cost of ownership will be much higher....something that most people don't really look at.

Well RPG, 90% is a lot greater than 0% if you can't afford otherwise.

 

[RPG_Fan]

I'm sorry, basic gaming experience on a hardcore gaming platform..OK, so just to understand....basic gaming experience means :

1. You will not be able to play content across multiple disks (e.g. Forza 3, so fewer cars and courses for you my friend cos you are a basic gamer)
2. You will not be able to download any DLC content even when you find that one game you love from our store cos you are a basic gamer
3. You will not be able to *patch* any of your games cos you are a basic gamer (e.g. Borderlands but likely to be far buggier games released in the near future where patches resolve critical defects)
4. You will not be able to save replays to watch again or show anyone cos you a basic gamer.
5. You will not be able to download any exclusive XBL releases cos you are a basic gamer.

5. You will not be able to do anything more than basic stuff cos you are an ARCADE gamer.

I've been gaming from the mid-80's and my first pc (an 4.77mhz AT IBM), i can tell you that loading patches for games is a basic need !

FAIL post RPG and FAIL decision by MS !

You will be able to play the game on the arcade right?
As I iterated, you will not get the most out of your game until you add the HDD. I don't really think it gets anymore "basic" than that?

 

[RPG_Fan]

Well RPG, 90% is a lot greater than 0% if you can't afford otherwise.

True, but people don't know that do they? A little bit of extra knowledge can help them buy the right product. Ask Nduimiso, he bought a pro.

 

[Lemon369]

@tim : you, ND and everyone that chose elite's or pro's support my argument completely, you chose to buy the console with an hdd because you consider it a necessity to your gaming needs..attempting profile arcade buyers exclusively as wanting a basic gaming experience is flawed, they buying it on price and sometimes have no idea of the implications (probably because HDD's weren't necessary for the previous generation...and you're while you're not in that mindset, you trying to sell it)...games are different now, basically more games i buy require a patch than not and most offer DLC (like MW, you cannot play on-line if you haven't got the map packs)...

The pricing issue in relation to an arcade vs pro is also a FAIL...if a 'casual' hardcore gamer is going to pay between R600 and R1000 for a game (even more, like R3000 if you look at GH world tour bundles) then how can they not afford R3500 for a console that will support all features of the game...

And yes, when MS really start milking you and the arcade owners when a triple AAA game needs a hdd or when it's close to R1000 for gold membership to play games online then watch people buy PS3's for it's complete package (not high-end or superior, just complete) including free online play...

I fail to understand the market ? I am the market, hence the decision to buy a PS3...MS has not failed yet, but it's coming bud...I've said it through most of my posts that they are going to be hit hard by this decision and consumers (including yourself) are going to be impacted...

<lemon-says-so> <--- easy search string when i need to search for this post a year from now...

 

[Lemon369]

You will be able to play the game on the arcade right?
As I iterated, you will not get the most out of your game until you add the HDD. I don't really think it gets anymore "basic" than that?

If by "the game", if we are using Forza as an example, not all 400 cars and not all the courses that the other 360 gamers can enjoy...by 'the game' you mean not all the content on the disc's you have purchased....by 'the game' you mean not required patches for on-line play or 'the game' you mean any DLC ....then yes, you would be able to play some of the stuff on the disc you buy...

To me, i'm sorry, not being able to access all the cars and courses in Forza 3 is a FAIL, if it was the exception it would still be a FAIL...but it's likely to be a precedent for a trend that is more likely to occur because consumers are accepting it...

MW2 dedicated servers for PC was such a huge issue and there were figures like 30% and more PC pre-orders were cancelled, why when u don't buy a server when u buy a game, because gamers demand that their expectations and basic online gaming experiences are provided by the studio. Sure, they don't really have a SAY, there is still a strong on-line component, but it doesn't provide a *FULL* complete experience and they are not happy about it...they just had the sense to raise their concern as a community and choose to respond with their wallets by cancellling their pre-orders...good on them !

I won't be doing anything like that against MS, but i won't be shocked when it does happen as per my post above...

 

[semiautomatix]

@tim : you, ND and everyone that chose elite's or pro's support my argument completely, you chose to buy the console with an hdd because you consider it a necessity to your gaming needs..attempting profile arcade buyers exclusively as wanting a basic gaming experience is flawed, they buying it on price and sometimes have no idea of the implications (probably because HDD's weren't necessary for the previous generation...and you're while you're not in that mindset, you trying to sell it)...games are different now, basically more games i buy require a patch than not and most offer DLC (like MW, you cannot play on-line if you haven't got the map packs)...

The pricing issue in relation to an arcade vs pro is also a FAIL...if a 'casual' hardcore gamer is going to pay between R600 and R1000 for a game (even more, like R3000 if you look at GH world tour bundles) then how can they not afford R3500 for a console that will support all features of the game...

And yes, when MS really start milking you and the arcade owners when a triple AAA game needs a hdd or when it's close to R1000 for gold membership to play games online then watch people buy PS3's for it's complete package (not high-end or superior, just complete) including free online play...

I fail to understand the market ? I am the market, hence the decision to buy a PS3...MS has not failed yet, but it's coming bud...I've said it through most of my posts that they are going to be hit hard by this decision and consumers (including yourself) are going to be impacted...

<lemon-says-so> <--- easy search string when i need to search for this post a year from now...

Why are you sprouting BS about a R1000, or is your currency converter broken... again?

Furthermore I bought my XBox 360 when I had no choice, they all came with hard drives. These days, those who can't afford everything buy the Arcade and enjoy it till the can upgrade.

You are a certain LSM in the market. But by no means are you the only one. Lower LSM have lesser requirements, namely the bare minimum. The Arcade sells well because Microsoft understands this, you clearly don't! As such I'll take everything you say with a big pinch of salt and a length of bog roll.

 

[RPG_Fan]

If by "the game", if we are using Forza as an example, not all 400 cars and not all the courses that the other 360 gamers can enjoy...by 'the game' you mean not all the content on the disc's you have purchased....by 'the game' you mean not required patches for on-line play or 'the game' you mean any DLC ....then yes, you would be able to play some of the stuff on the disc you buy...

To me, i'm sorry, not being able to access all the cars and courses in Forza 3 is a FAIL, if it was the exception it would still be a FAIL...but it's likely to be a precedent for a trend that is more likely to occur because consumers are accepting it...

MW2 dedicated servers for PC was such a huge issue and there were figures like 30% and more PC pre-orders were cancelled, why when u don't buy a server when u buy a game, because gamers demand that their expectations and basic online gaming experiences are provided by the studio. Sure, they don't really have a SAY, there is still a strong on-line component, but it doesn't provide a *FULL* complete experience and they are not happy about it...they just had the sense to raise their concern as a community and choose to respond with their wallets by cancellling their pre-orders...good on them !

I won't be doing anything like that against MS, but i won't be shocked when it does happen as per my post above...

And I still stand by my definition of "basic". Although it does not cover all aspects of the game, the user still has access to play the game. Since most buyers assume that buying the arcade will cover every aspect of a game, it would be wrong for M$ to introduce a model that leave out certain aspects of a game. My recommendation would be for M$ to bundle its Arcade with a 20Gig HDD which should only inflate the price by another R100-200 which will give each user the option to do everything the developers has to offer. This I would say is the bare minimum a gaming console should have.

 

[semiautomatix]

And I still stand by my definition of "basic". Although it does not cover all aspects of the game, the user still has access to play the game. Since most buyers assume that buying the arcade will cover every aspect of a game, it would be wrong for M$ to introduce a model that leave out certain aspects of a game. My recommendation would be for M$ to bundle its Arcade with a 20Gig HDD which should only inflate the price by another R100-200 which will give each user the option to do everything the developers has to offer. This I would say is the bare minimum a gaming console should have.

Honest truth is if MS had allowed you to use any hard drive, obviously with a minimum size, from any manufacturer this wouldn't even be a concern.

 

[RPG_Fan]

Honest truth is if MS had allowed you to use any hard drive, obviously with a minimum size, from any manufacturer this wouldn't even be a concern.

I honestly don't even think that this thread would have gotten this far. Does adding/replacing the HDD actually void the std 1 year warranty?

 

[Dolby]

Maybe we can relax now and start on the Blu Ray short comings of a PS3?

 

[RPG_Fan]

Maybe we can relax now and start on the Blu Ray short comings of a PS3?