3rd Degree last night

[greggpb]

Yes maybe they shouldn't have left him alone.... But I am sorry you do not spray a sick 69 year old man who is not even resisting with pepper spray! Secondly the family after they found out that he was arrested went to the police and told them of his condition. Still the police did not get a doctor or anything.
Both the Police and Shoprite are responsible for his death and should be charged.

you do not spray anyone who is not even resisting with pepper spray

 

[PeterCH]

What you pay a security guard at the door is what mentality you can expect. They won't care if you are mentally challenged, have Alzheimers or are a bona fide shoplifter.

Each store has a manager, the guy should evaluate each case. If you can see you're dealing with an old, confused individual, don't be stupid and call the Keystone cops. Call his family and raise the issue. It was a candy bar for goodness sakes. Checkers deserves a lawsuit. They're in the business of serving the public, they should expect such problems and have ways of dealing with them.

All I'm trying to say is that, with the amounts of shoplifting going on, managers and store owners expect their guards to get the police involved no matter what.

Then they must face the consequences. Wrongful death suit should be brought against Checkers for this. If this was in the States, that would happen for sure.

The police are expected to act, no matter what. Perhaps only when the detective on duty sees your case he will let you go, but you're still going to have to appear in court the next day, where it will be thrown out if found silly.

They're not supposed to torture or deny medical care to their suspects.
Criminal charges for manslaughter should be brought against these clowns.

If your 5yr old kid tries on new shoes and forgets to take them off before you leave you will be arrested. Be aware of what your kids do in a grocery store!

I seriously doubt this. If a child walks out of a store with an item, the adult won't be held responsible unless it's obvious he made them do it.

 

[slowcheetah]

Each store has a manager, the guy should evaluate each case. If you can see you're dealing with an old, confused individual, don't be stupid and call the Keystone cops. Call his family and raise the issue. It was a candy bar for goodness sakes. Checkers deserves a lawsuit. They're in the business of serving the public, they should expect such problems and have ways of dealing with them.

That's what I say as well. And you'll find a lot of managers who do this. But you'll find more who just don't want to get involved in deciding whether a person is faking his condition or not.

Then they must face the consequences. Wrongful death suit should be brought against Checkers for this. If this was in the States, that would happen for sure.

Checkers did not torture anybody.

They're not supposed to torture or deny medical care to their suspects.

:erm: Did I say they were supposed to do such an inhumane thing?

I seriously doubt this. If a child walks out of a store with an item, the adult won't be held responsible unless it's obvious he made them do it.

You can doubt all you like. I'm not pulling this out of my behind. People use their kids to commit crimes all the time. How should a guard differentiate between someone who meant to do this and someone who didn't. Should we check their race or financial status and make a decision thereupon?

 

[Kimosabe]

Look I totally agree with you guys, this needs to be looked into.
But the way agent orange dealt with it was classic. She was like a small child not getting her way. The Oros lady always makes me laugh, using Patta and journalism in the same sentence is a crime against humanity.

 

[porn$tar]

Look I totally agree with you guys, this needs to be looked into.
But the way agent orange dealt with it was classic. She was like a small child not getting her way. The Oros lady always makes me laugh, using Patta and journalism in the same sentence is a crime against humanity.

Patta gets answers and results, how she gets it is irrelevant. Should things like this be treated with the complacency we've become accustomed to and get swept under the carpet? The time for kid gloves and political correctness has passed.

 

[PeterCH]

That's what I say as well. And you'll find a lot of managers who do this. But you'll find more who just don't want to get involved in deciding whether a person is faking his condition or not.

Than this manager guy needs to be held responsible.

Checkers did not torture anybody.

No, they handed an innocent man to the keystone cops, before those cops arrived he was handcuffed and detained - probably terrified the guy. I can tell you that a confused demented man (delirious person) can become very agitated if manhandled or detained. This agitation led to a sympathetic overdrive which could have precipitated a heart attack in a predisposed individual.

:erm: Did I say they were supposed to do such an inhumane thing?

You said that cops need to act. Well they need to act to detain but not to torture or deny treatment.

You can doubt all you like. I'm not pulling this out of my behind. People use their kids to commit crimes all the time. How should a guard differentiate between someone who meant to do this and someone who didn't. Should we check their race or financial status and make a decision thereupon?

A guard may not, but his supervisor can and certainly so can the manager of the store. There is also CCTV footage which can be reviewed too.

Shops have a responsibility here. They sell to the public. They are public places, unlike private homes and offices where the general public may not enter. Shops advertise to bring people in.

Tough if you're loosing money to thieves. But if you contribute to a wrongful death, you need to pay for that. Also, does Checkers WANT so much negative publicity? Is it worth it?

 

[BLIXEMPIE]

I think Deborah Patta is a b.i.t.c.h and a very bad journalist. She is way too abrasive when questioning someone whom she thinks is the "bad guy" in the situation. Not refering particularly to last night's episode but just how she acts and performs in general when questioning someone on the show. She can learn a few pointers from Derrick Watts and the other Carte Blanche journalists who still manage to get relevant answers to questions asked, without being nearly as abrasive. If Patta can learn to start questioning her subjects with dignity she will receive a much more cooperative and positive response from them, no matter what. Last night, the superintendent she interviewed was clearly uncooperative and resistent towards Patta due to the fact that Patta treated her like crap, and still Patta didn't get any relevent answers from her. I just can't like Patta.

 

[PeterCH]

I think Deborah Patta is a b.i.t.c.h and a very bad journalist. She is way too abrasive when questioning someone whom she thinks is the "bad guy" in the situation. Not refering particularly to last night's episode but just how she acts and performs in general when questioning someone on the show. She can learn a few pointers from Derrick Watts and the other Carte Blanche journalists who still manage to get relevant answers to questions asked, without being nearly as abrasive. If Patta can learn to start questioning her subjects with dignity she will receive a much more cooperative and positive response from them, no matter what. Last night, the superintendent she interviewed was clearly uncooperative and resistent towards Patta due to the fact that Patta treated her like crap, and still Patta didn't get any relevent answers from her. I just can't like Patta.

Agree. Patta behaves like an amateur. Her story on meningitis a few months back was total bollox. I was embarrassed at the level of preparation she had for the interviews.

 

[slowcheetah]

Than this manager guy needs to be held responsible.

Managers are not normally equipped to determine whether a person is faking it or not. And his boss will fire him if he just let's people go and that is why he would rather call the cops.

No, they handed an innocent man to the keystone cops, before those cops arrived he was handcuffed and detained - probably terrified the guy. I can tell you that a confused demented man (delirious person) can become very agitated if manhandled or detained. This agitation led to a sympathetic overdrive which could have precipitated a heart attack in a predisposed individual.

Everybody is innocent until proven guilty.

You said that cops need to act. Well they need to act to detain but not to torture or deny treatment.

Yes. It goes without saying really.

A guard may not, but his supervisor can and certainly so can the manager of the store. There is also CCTV footage which can be reviewed too.

Shops have a responsibility here. They sell to the public. They are public places, unlike private homes and offices where the general public may not enter. Shops advertise to bring people in.

Tough if you're loosing money to thieves. But if you contribute to a wrongful death, you need to pay for that. Also, does Checkers WANT so much negative publicity? Is it worth it?

LOL. So the manager, in all his glory arrives and let's the guy go on a layman's evaluation. We pay taxes to send people to court, where trained personel can determine whether a person is guilty or not and here you want shoprite to hold their own unofficial trials. Imagine how many con-artists will be slipping between the cracks.

Shoprite had him arrested, not killed. I feel sorry for this guy. The police officials in question is to blame here.

 

[PeterCH]

Managers are not normally equipped to determine whether a person is faking it or not. And his boss will fire him if he just let's people go and that is why he would rather call the cops.

A manager is not expected to do a medical evaluation on someone behaving strangely but he should not simply call the cops and assume the man a criminal. That's the problem with a lack of education in many countries, including SA, people don't have insight. They are taught algorithms but anything out of the ordinary and they can't handle it, or they're too lazy. The guy was 69, for goodness sakes, and pinched a candy bar, he wasn't a robber. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the man wasn't right and that a lousy R8 candy bar can lead to a lot of very bad PR.

As for being fired, managers have a lot of leeway. He wouldn't be fired over letting a senior citizen go who had pinched a candy bar. The negative publicity however over this should be enough to let him go.

Everybody is innocent until proven guilty.

Hence the manager could have let him go. He's not obliged to prosecute everyone. He could have - given the guy another chance, had the staff contact his family, and called an ambulance if he saw the man behave strangely.


Yes. It goes without saying really.

LOL. So the manager, in all his glory arrives and let's the guy go on a layman's evaluation. We pay taxes to send people to court, where trained personel can determine whether a person is guilty or not and here you want shoprite to hold their own unofficial trials. Imagine how many con-artists will be slipping between the cracks.

The guy took a candy bar for goodness sakes. A conman would not be stealing a candy bar. How thick headed did the manager have to be to think this was some sinister plot to rob Checkers. People devour more stock in 5 minutes in these shops than that candy bar was worth.

Shoprite had him arrested, not killed. I feel sorry for this guy. The police officials in question is to blame here.

Shoprite over-reacted. This means I can also file criminal charges against ShopRite each time they make a mistake and overcharge me. Shoprite's stupid knee jerk reaction caused this guy his life.

I will tell you one thing, I don't have sympathy for Shoprite or PnP, both are staffed badly and management is poor. But to detain an OLD guy over a candy bar and contribute to his death is way over the line. Shoprite keeps its doors open, it has to be able to handly strange people, demented, confused, and otherwise ill.

Shoprite handcuffed the man, detained him and started the process which killed this man. Shoprite and its manager (who takes responsibility) are guilty here not only of human rights violations, but also of contributing to the man's demise. Maybe a warning sign in ShopRite should say "Shop lifting may result in your death."

 

[InSanity]

Ok this is a bit of derailment but this just goes to show how bad cops are getting http://www.dispatch.co.za/article.aspx?id=322260 this is honestly scary who watches the watchers !

 

[Kimosabe]

Patta gets answers and results, how she gets it is irrelevant. Should things like this be treated with the complacency we've become accustomed to and get swept under the carpet? The time for kid gloves and political correctness has passed.

Um, sorry no she doesn't she jumps onto her high horse, takes out her sensationalist brush and goes to town. She doesn’t accomplish anything helpful. She jumps to her own conclusions about every single topic, refuses to listen to anyone else that isn’t her and screams and shouts people down. Kids gloves is all she has, large green Hulk gloves that make punching sounds when ever she swings them around. Patta thinks that emulating FOX news is the way things should be done. She has all the trademarks of a lobotomy patient under going electro-shock therapy. Theres, lots of trashing and screaming, her hair stands on end and she beings to froth at the mouth. But at the end of the day all your left with is a black eye, crazy hair cut, a pair of pants full of your own **** and permanently retarded.

 

[BLIXEMPIE]

Lmfao!

You definately put it better than I do. Hope Patta reads this thread.

 

[Aeron]

The second deepest circle of hell is reserved for those who abused their office.

These "cops", these men of honour, sworn to protect and to serve their people, now hunt the people. Youngest and oldest, the infirm. These cops fear the streets, where those with murder in their hearts walk freely because they can not be brave. So now they unleash all their pent up fear and rage on those who deserve it least. Those whom they are supposed to protect. Little girls getting raped by cops, old people getting assaulted by cops. Always in force because alone they are like solitary hyenas. A heartbeat away from dying of fear.

They know their use of excessive violence in a situation where it may actually be required and justified (shooting a killer on the run) would get spilled all over the news and they would be boiled in court. So, they have their domestic fun. Beating up those who can't fight for themselves. And this is covered up and ignored because this would be the final sign that the country has completely gone to the dogs.

These are the real criminals. Those who even I, not in the least a man of violence, would watch, with glee, be eaten alive by fire.

 

[Sting]

Unlike some other forumites commenting here, I did watch this episode.

What disgusts me is the level of cover up and non-acceptance of accountability by all parties.

The security comapny, employed by Checkers, had no right to manhandle and handcuff him to a chair.

The Checkers' store manageress, for passing the buck.

The arresting officers, especially the one waiting at the door shaking his pepper spray can long before the old man arrived, lied in their report and only changed their report once it came to light that they were captured on CCTV.

The station commander for not allowing the injured old man immediate medical treatment as per S.O.P.

The officials responsible for locking up a clearing distressed old man in a solitary cell and then not allowing his family access to him... the list goes on.

 

[R/SGT]

I agree with you.

Commen sense which plays a large role in policing was clearly absent from this event.

 

[rebel998]

Shoprite wouldn't care less. They just want to make $$$!

As for the SAPS they would be able to find their dix without a flashlight. I don't want to cry racism but it did occur to me that all the officers involved were black.

Remember the outcry when those white officers from the westrand?? set their dogs on and assualted illegal imigrants a few years back?

The commanding officer did her best to do damage control, she knows what had happened was wrong but will/can never admit that on tv! Her wordgames with Patta was a clear indication of this.

But that said I do agree that this person should never have been out alone.

 

[Aeron]

Fools. A 69 year old can't be out alone? My eighty year old grandfather went out alone. You get fifty year olds rotten to the core with age disease and then you get healthy seventy year olds. Generalization helps no one.

Oh. The cops were all black. No way. Really? Let's cry racism. Will get the issue drowned instantly. What's left of it.

 

[porn$tar]

Fools. A 69 year old can't be out alone? My eighty year old grandfather went out alone. You get fifty year olds rotten to the core with age disease and then you get healthy seventy year olds. Generalization helps no one.

Physically he was fit but he suffered from Alzheimer's, but I'm sure you knew this, having watched the segment and having read the thread.

 

[BLIXEMPIE]

...and that the superintendent who went out shopping whilst on duty is white...