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3rd Degree - Sterilization
- Thread starter d7e7r7
- Start date
That comes with protecting rights. You protect all rights because once you start picking and choosing, the slippery slope is right there and pretty soon you may find yourself on the endangered list too.
We have the resources to sustain billions of people more than we have.
wrathex
Expert Member
Longterm planning for population control on a global level with focus on South Africa
This is a very critical topic, I've thought about it extensively, I blogged about it here :
wrathex.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/the-global-overpopulation-issue-focus-on-south-africa/
http://wrathex.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/the-global-overpopulation-issue-focus-on-south-africa/
Please give your comments on these ideas, this is a serious topic and all comments are valid, we need to think clearly about this issue, everyone's opinion is valid and counts.
I will copy and paste the above the article directly:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The importance of longterm planning for population control on a global level with focus on South Africa.
Few people are willing to converse about this topic, but it is an issue I often think about and I want to talk about it.
Every time the government talks about poverty & welfare and the increasing gap between the poor and the rich, I become frustrated, because:
1. The gap between the poor and the rich keeps growing:
* poor communities generally have a high population growth
* rich communities generally have a negative population growth (in SA)
It becomes obvious that poverty can never be eradicated as long as the population growth in poor communities remain so high.
The child of a family living on or under the breadline today, has a slim chance of breaking out of poverty, because the poor child will simply not receive the financial support that smooths the path of the rich child and will not be exposed to as many opportunities as the rich child.
You cannot blame rich people because they chose to have only one or two or no children in comparison with poorer families who often have large families.
2. You cannot command someone ( a woman) that she may not have children or must have fewer children, but you can educate her to understand the economic implications of the cost of that child on her personally, and also on her future as a whole.
* currently the high cost of having a child is not being brought to the attention of women
* currently government focus’s too hard on HIV and progressive family planning is not on the agenda
Possible Solutions:
The basic rights of every person globally : Setting the scenario for longterm population control
* every person has the ethical and universal right to procreate
* thus every man and woman has the universal right to replace themself
* thus every couple has the universal right to have two children together
When a couple has given birth to their second child, sterilisation or vasectomy will be offered and encouraged and will be offered free of charge at any government hospital.
Possible legislative solutions:
* Family Planning Tax
* Every person or couple that wants to have larger families can do it, but:
* Extra and high taxes will be recovered from those individuals or couples to fascilitate the costs that child will incur on society locally and globally. (remember the first two children are tax free)
Possible other ways to convince people through education that having smaller families are good for them and society:
* use of current and widely distributed clinic system to make pamphlets and posters available
* the information must be basic and graphically presented so that everyone can easily understand the message
Possible marketing tricks to use which could work:
The graphic representation of how one cow/pizza/cake is shared by Mr and Mrs Citizen
* how nice and big the portions are
* what happens when Mr and Mrs Citizen gets a little Junior
* what happens when the portions get smaller
* what happens to the portions when Junior gets a sister
* what happens when Junior marries and his wife has a baby and so on
The visual impact of the message of the shrinking portions must shock and penetrate.
----------------------------------------------------- ends article
This is a very critical topic, I've thought about it extensively, I blogged about it here :
wrathex.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/the-global-overpopulation-issue-focus-on-south-africa/
http://wrathex.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/the-global-overpopulation-issue-focus-on-south-africa/
Please give your comments on these ideas, this is a serious topic and all comments are valid, we need to think clearly about this issue, everyone's opinion is valid and counts.
I will copy and paste the above the article directly:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The importance of longterm planning for population control on a global level with focus on South Africa.
Few people are willing to converse about this topic, but it is an issue I often think about and I want to talk about it.
Every time the government talks about poverty & welfare and the increasing gap between the poor and the rich, I become frustrated, because:
1. The gap between the poor and the rich keeps growing:
* poor communities generally have a high population growth
* rich communities generally have a negative population growth (in SA)
It becomes obvious that poverty can never be eradicated as long as the population growth in poor communities remain so high.
The child of a family living on or under the breadline today, has a slim chance of breaking out of poverty, because the poor child will simply not receive the financial support that smooths the path of the rich child and will not be exposed to as many opportunities as the rich child.
You cannot blame rich people because they chose to have only one or two or no children in comparison with poorer families who often have large families.
2. You cannot command someone ( a woman) that she may not have children or must have fewer children, but you can educate her to understand the economic implications of the cost of that child on her personally, and also on her future as a whole.
* currently the high cost of having a child is not being brought to the attention of women
* currently government focus’s too hard on HIV and progressive family planning is not on the agenda
Possible Solutions:
The basic rights of every person globally : Setting the scenario for longterm population control
* every person has the ethical and universal right to procreate
* thus every man and woman has the universal right to replace themself
* thus every couple has the universal right to have two children together
When a couple has given birth to their second child, sterilisation or vasectomy will be offered and encouraged and will be offered free of charge at any government hospital.
Possible legislative solutions:
* Family Planning Tax
* Every person or couple that wants to have larger families can do it, but:
* Extra and high taxes will be recovered from those individuals or couples to fascilitate the costs that child will incur on society locally and globally. (remember the first two children are tax free)
Possible other ways to convince people through education that having smaller families are good for them and society:
* use of current and widely distributed clinic system to make pamphlets and posters available
* the information must be basic and graphically presented so that everyone can easily understand the message
Possible marketing tricks to use which could work:
The graphic representation of how one cow/pizza/cake is shared by Mr and Mrs Citizen
* how nice and big the portions are
* what happens when Mr and Mrs Citizen gets a little Junior
* what happens when the portions get smaller
* what happens to the portions when Junior gets a sister
* what happens when Junior marries and his wife has a baby and so on
The visual impact of the message of the shrinking portions must shock and penetrate.
----------------------------------------------------- ends article
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porchrat
Honorary Master
Well we're doing an awesome job of it.
I understand that you want to live in an ideal world. However you don't live in an ideal world. This is a practical world and we need practical solutions.
This is the sort of solution I had in mind and was trying to express to you:
(thanks wrathex)
The bold part I have edited. This way you don't remove someone's right to procreate. Just the right to procreate excessively.
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You see people starve in the developed world? You see farmer numbers increasing there too?
Spoken like a good Marxist.
Realpolitik is it? Don't be offended.Not to bring Godwin into this, but yeah this is what the Nazis also said.
Ideals are important because without ideals we'll descend into barbarism quickly enough. We can't force anything on anyone. We can only help people help themselves and offer incentives etc - but forcing or coercing people to modify their bodies or change their rights because some higher power thinks it will be better for them - that's a no-no.
This is crazy. It's fascism.
Secondly, if it's mandatory - obviously it must be FREE of charge.
Missing logic there.
Some pretty disturbing ideas there - no mandatory stuff - except for one rule - one mandatory rule is that there are no mandatory human rights exclusions.
porchrat
Honorary Master
Of course it is a horrific thought. However it will solve the over population problem.
We need to face the reality of the situation. We don't have the money with the way our government burns through it to sufficiently educate the poor to explain why they shouldn't have a zillion kids. At the same time there are cultural issues to deal with. The problem can't just be left to degenerate. Otherwise we just end up with a downward spiral with every generation suffering more under poverty than the last.
If you're speaking about SA I doubt the politicos here would undermine their election base. And if they were entertaining such ideas, some revese-racist veteran leader would emerge and promulgate that it's in SA best interest to get rid of all the ex-colonials. I mean anything goes - castrate them all or they can leave with 20kg luggage allowance.
porchrat
Honorary Master
Sometimes I think this is tin-foil hattery and other times not. Perhaps it is a case of never assuming malice when ineptitude will suffice as an explanation?
If this is some sort of unofficial policy to keep enlarging the vote base then it is pretty sick.
Fingers crossed that won't happen. I love this country too much to watch it consumed by pointless violence.
Why would politicians undermine their support base? If your ideals were to come to pass elsewhere in the world, some leaders here may decide to embark on the veteran scenario I suggested rather than abusing their electorate.
Fascism elsewhere would get emulated here.
Like it or not, human rights are sacred - no matter the race or creed of the overpopulous people - we should never force anything on them.
Fingers crossed that won't happen. I love this country too much to watch it consumed by pointless violence.[/QUOTE]
trinityEon
Well-Known Member
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[/QUOTE]
If you read my posts correctly you will also see that i say they should be sterilized based on the fact of how many children they can afford and how they treat them, prisoners should work for free, in order to make our tax money work for us, not laze around watching dstv.
Point is they make the decision themselves, if they rape and abuse children they they should not have the right to have children, nothing fascist, if they choose not to be sterilized then they should not commit ill acts to society, hence nobody but them is making the decision.
The same goes for if you decide to rob a bank and murder people, when you are convicted, you go to prison, not by your choice... you do the crime you must pay the price. when people realize this then they will think twice before doing the crime.
you seem to think humans are superior, explain humanity to me please, i urge you. even the dictionary meaning,
now show me whats the percentage of people practicing this, how much of it is taught in schools. PeterCH you seem to have double standards, whats good for you isn't good for animals and other species of this planet, because they are inferior, but in their own way every species can do things the other cant, Nature was smart when it spread all the 'powers' across all the species, no one species including humans, have all the 'powers' rolled into one. this as everyone knows is a dangerous combination.
with great power comes with great responsibility... humans are proof of that irresponsibility many times over.
If you say nobody has the right to choose for another, then howcome we humans are allowed to choose all the land in the world to live in and other species need to be moved away, and forced out of the environment because we choose to take up their space 'because we need it'
PeterCH, why are you so scared to take up my challenge, to prove that you can practice what you preach and lets see if you can really educate the people, and lets see if that will work, everyone knows it wont.
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trinityEon
Well-Known Member
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Thanks mate very few of us really can open our eyes and have the wool removed from our eyes, to see the reality of the situation going on. Lets hope 3rd degree read this post on their update show
@ wrathex, why dont you use the comments in this thread in your blog, everyone needs to see the light and reality of the situation, in your last example you should add the fact of the landfill waste produced by them, if money wasn't part of the equation, then they could take from nature what they need, and give back what they dont need, meaning for example if everyone eats an apple, instead of throwing it on a heap when done, plant it, and it may either become a tree to feed another hungry soul someday, or decompose to provide nutrition for another species, in a landfill it will take up space and over time the habitat that should co exist there have to move away, and it may even get polluted by the other toxins that exists on landfills. Money is the root cause of the problem here
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Nerfherder
Honorary Master
Yes, they do... I have been to a Doctors graduation ceremony.
Mila
Honorary Master
trinityEon
Well-Known Member
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is it a Hippocratic oath or a hypocrite oath LOL, surprising that it includes you need to have a medical aid before being admitted... oh wait i forget hospitals don't take the oath, doctors do
What are you smoking? Last time I checked I wasn't a government. You want me to socially engineer SA's society alone?
Whatever criteria you sat- anything mandatory which modifies people's bodies is wrong. You could give tax cuts for smaller families (irrespective of how people achieve that) if you will, but any forced tubal ligation or vasectomy is a bad idea. You can offer free family planning services too - but to force people to make use of surgical methods of sterilization is wrong from a moral/ethical POV.
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Take it up with hospital administrators. Last time I checked, most doctors who work for private hospitals, don't have policy decision making power.
Nanfeishen
Executive Member
How do you reach that conclusion ?, the world is running on low and it is getting lower by the day.
Its past that point already.
We need to consider both world first, country second
It was officially only for one generation, most families in China have 2 or more children.
The way the government deals is first child tax free, education free, the second and 3rd children, you pay tax on and pay for their education. Therefore poorer people are encouraged to have less children as they dont get support for anything above the first child.
Western society is too obsessed with pro-lfe , human rights, this right or that right as far as health is concerned.
People cannot afford children, encourage abortion.
People want to step off the their mortal coil encourage the right to die with dignity.
Education in schools WRT abortion, sterilization, and family planning, AFAIK, most schools nowadays offer "life skills" type classes, the medium to spread the word already exists, however governments are too scared and unwilling to utilise the opportunity.
The added problem we have in Africa, is that any policy introduced will be jumped upon as being of racial implementation.
The only ethical way to really address the problem is to make it clear to people, that their first child can and will recieve a certain amount of health care and education grants from government, and any other offspring are not eligible for any handouts, grants or healthcare.
Those fees must be payed for by the parents.
That way if the first child does not survive, or dies at a young age, the second child then recieves those benefits, or the parents can at least try for a second child.
It is also difficult to change cultural thinking, especially in those cultures where traditionally the children took care of the parents after a certain age. Where more than one child offered security to the parents, and didnt burden the child in future years.