vodacom3g
Vodacom Representative
OK, no problem. Keep us up to date with your ASA efforts.
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7.2mb Really?
- Thread starter GotTrend
- Start date
OK, no problem. Keep us up to date with your ASA efforts.
V3G - I realize you have in all likelihood zip to do with VC marketing or product-naming conventions, but if the 7.2 was never included a lot of customers would have been less p'd off and far fewer expectations would have been created.
vodacom3g
Vodacom Representative
Actually, I'm pretty involved and created the HSDPA 7.2, HSDPA 1.8, etc. product names.
As with most things in life, getting the product positioning right is influenced by many factors. One of the main challenges here is how to tie the product name in with the hardware required to get the service.
There must be a easy way for a customer to connect the product with the device he is going to guy. We already see 3 different HSDPA speeds in devices (1.8, 3.6 and 7.2) and these will soon be joined by even more (10.8, 14.4, 28.8).
If you now have profile based products (like VC has), they need to be easily associated with the correct modem specs.
So HSDPA-1.8 requires a modem that supports 1.8, HSDPA-3.6 requires a 3.6 modem and so on.
The new naming (BB-S, BB-A and more to come) effectively include the relevant products, i.e. BB-S includes HSDPA-3.6 and BB-A includes HSDPA-7.2.
I will agree with you that training and marketing should be more clear. For example, I suggested that we downplay the HSDPA-7.2 part of BB-A and focus on the flat-rate component as this is the ONLY reason we created BB-A. Unfortunately this did not happen the way I would have liked to see it.
undefined
Well-Known Member
The 7.2 and 3.6 naming convention is a little misleading. You might has well included the Mbit - that's what people assume. I don't think it's fair for them not to either, sneaky marketing tricks.
On a side note regarding ASA.
I once won an ASA ruling against Sony Playstation when they launched the PS3. They claimed it was 7 times faster than any PC available or something.
They had to remove all material that mentioned it.
On a side note regarding ASA.
I once won an ASA ruling against Sony Playstation when they launched the PS3. They claimed it was 7 times faster than any PC available or something.
They had to remove all material that mentioned it.
SoTrue
Expert Member
The current names work for me. What names would you have suggested for the various products?
Also, I really am asking as politely as I can, what relevance does your ASA case have with this thread?
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vodacom3g
Vodacom Representative
It was actually the ASA (through the complaint of someone obviously) that forced the removal of the Mb/s bit and any speed ratings.
So you should take up the lack of speed ratings with the ASA!
vodacom3g
Vodacom Representative
Yup.
We're not allowed to quote speed as someone complained about the 'up to' ads and the ASA reacted.
At the same time there is a specific hardware requirement for a specific product and the products do actually offer different levels of service.
So how would one differentiate?
Today, we have two product groupings:
BB-Standard - Made up of normal rates (IB/=OOB) + HSDPA-3.6
BB-Advanced - Made up of flat rate (IB=OOB) + HSDPA-7.2
undefined
Well-Known Member
Happy for you. Personally I think wether the Mbit is there or not, they imply speed. Call it Vodacom High Speed Internet A or Vodacom High Speed Internet B or something.
Secondly, my ASA comment was intended as *inspiration* for the gentleman who posted a page back I think, about going to the ASA, that sometimes the little guys win.
And there we go
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SoTrue
Expert Member
And there we go
Assuming that Vodacom name their services Vodacom High Speed Internet A and B, what do you think are the first questions that a customer is going to ask? Yes, you're right: "How fast is this High Speed A service? And B?"
vodacom3g
Vodacom Representative
Or 'What do I need to get it?'
undefined
Well-Known Member
Yup, and then they should be explained the factors relating to the potential and theoretical speed.
Might put off a few people, but at least there can't be any discrepancies.
RULING OF THE ASA DIRECTORATE -VODACOM (PTY) LTD RESPONDENT - 22 September 2009 -VODACOM DATA/113853 - XXX lodged a consumer complaint against internet advertising appearing on http://www.vodacom.co.za/services/vodacom broadband/cost. isp
The website contains a host of information about the respondent’s “Broadband” product under headings such as “What is 3G?”, “Where can you get it?” and “How much does it cost? As part of the information contained under the heading “How much does it costs?”, it also refers to “Broadband Advanced” and states, inter ella, “Choose one of the, bundles below to get access to the freedom of equal in-bundle and out-of-bundle rates — a first only from Vodacom. Included are HSDPA 7.2 with HSUPA for free — the fastest speeds on the Vodacom network.”. COMPLAINT
In essence, the complainant submitted that the website creates the impression that the advertiser is capable of providing download speeds of 7.2. However, the respondent has confirmed that it cannot provide this speed in his area due to insufficient “backhaul links”.
RELEVANT CLAUSES OF THE CODE OF ADVERTISING PRACTICE
In tight of the complaint the following clauses of the Code were taken into account: • Section II, Clause 4.1 - Substantiation • Section II, Clause 4.2.1 - Misleading claims • Section lV, Clause 4 - Non-availability of advertised products RESPONSE
The advertising agency, DRAFTFCB, on behalf of the respondent, submitted that Vodacom launched a new product strutture consisting. of two services, namely Broadband Standard and Broadband Advanced.
It added that its advertising did not claim speed but rather communicated that the Vodacom network is capable of supporting the HSDPA 3.6 and 7.2 and HSUPA technologies. It was not making “up to x Mbps” claims nor claiming speeds in its product names by including a reference to speed.
It also submitted an article written by Rudolph Muller a lecturer at the University of Johannesburg and founder of mybroadband.co,za. The article states that Vodacom has “switched on 7.2 Mbps HSDPA across its third full generation network which encompasses more than 2700 sites and that Vodacom customers who subscribe to the new Broadband Advanced data option and connect, with HSDPA 7.2 capable devices, will benefit from higher download and upload speeds...” In view of the above it is clear that the advertising does not imply speed, but rather technological capabilities. The respondent did not specifically comment on why the complainant was not able to achieve such speeds. OPINION
The Directorate requested an opinion on the matter from ISPA (Internet Service Providers Association) as to whether the reference to HSDPA 7.2 in the advertising was a reference to a product name or to speed.
lSPA submitted that HSDPA is neither a product name, nor a speed, but rather a reference to a protocol for mobile data transfer which has a maximum speed of 7 ,2Mbits/s it said, however, that if an advert for HSDPA 7.2 service contained no other information about speed of the service, then a reasonable consumer would assume that “7.2” refers to the performance speed of the HSDPA service, In the context of the respondent’s advertisement, the term HSDPA 7.2 does include “7.2” which is a reference to speed of the service. If an advert, however, contains specific information about the performance speed of that service then a reasonable consumer would understand that the term refers to a category of product rather than guaranteed performance speed. It pointed out that the particular page in dispute gives no specifics about speed. However, the website as a whole does contain a “What is 3G?” link, which provides clarity about speeds available. RESPONSE TO THE OPINION The respondent submitted that ISPA is correct in observing that Vodacom uses the term “HSDPA 7.2” to refer to products on the HSDPA 7.2 protocol. ASA DIRECTORATE RULING The ASA Directorate considered all the relevant documentation submitted by the respective parties. Clause 4.1 of Section II states, inter ella, that before advertising is published, advertisers must hold in their possession documentary evidence as set out in Clause 4.1, to support all claims, whether direct or implied, that are capable of objective substantiation. The Directorate is therefore tasked with determining what the statement “Included are HSDPA 7.2 with HSUPA for free — the fastest speeds on the Vodacom network!” is likely to imply to the hypothetical reasonable person. The complainant submitted that despite being a subscriber to the Broadband Advanced service, he has never experienced download speeds in excess of 3.6. Vodacom advised him that it cannot provide the 7.2 speed due to insufficient backhaul links within his vicinity. He also provided the Directorate with speed test results in support of his argument. The respondent submitted that its claim does not communicate speed but rather that the Vodacom network is capable of supporting and sustaining HSDPA 3.6 AND 7.2 technologies. It added that the claim in question did not relate to speed and it was therefore not necessary to submit substantiation in support of the speeds. Furthermore, it does not claim speed or include speed indicators such as Mbps. It added that the Directorate previously considered similar matters namely, MTN HSDPA 3G / Vodacom / 8755 (8 May2007 Telkom / Vodacom / 9322 (17 July 2007), and MTN / J Coetzee & Vodacom / 10749/ 106t29 (17 Aøril 2008). The material difference between the above mentioned rulings and the issue at hand is that, in the above-referenced rulings, the Directorate was asked to determine the validity of a speed claim such as “HSDPA 7.2Mbps” and “HSDPA 3.2Mbps”. In other words, the Directorate had to determine whether or not the claimed speed could be achieved. In the current dispute, the Directorate has to determine whether, in the absence of a reference to “Mbps”, a hypothetical reasonable person would still interpret the claim “HSDPA 7.2” as used on the respondent’s advertising as a reference to speed. The excerpt from Rudolph Muller states, inter alia, Vodacom has “switched on 7.2 MBPS HSDPA across its third full generation network which encompasses more than 2700 sites (and thati Vodacom customers who subscribe to the new Broadband Advanced data option and connect, with HSDPA 7.2 capable devices, will benefit from higher download and upload speeds...” (our emphasis). It is also significant to note that the article by Rudolph Muller is headed “7.2 Mbps HSDPA with bandwidth rollover”. This clearly references speed and implies that this is what consumers are likely to expect or achieve on this product. As such, it appears contradictory to the respondent’s initial argument. This discrepancy, however, is not material, given that the hypothetical reasonable person would not access the article by Mr Muller when considering the respondent’s website. The Directorate is therefore not guided by this article. The opinion submitted by ISPA submitted that HSDPA has a number of different versions, each supporting different data speeds. HSDPA 7.2 refers to a version of HSDPA which supports maximum data rates of 7.2 Mbits/s. ISPA clarified that, in the absence of a specific mention of expected speed, consumers are likely to interpret the digits following the term HSDPA as an indication of the expected speed. It added that “...while it is used in the context of a product in the advertisement, the term ‘HSDPA 7.2’ does include ‘7.2’ which is a reference to speed of the service... “. This appears to support the complainant’s contention that the reference to “7.2” implies that this is the speed offered. ISPA also correctly pointed out that speed claims are made for this product on the respondent’s “What is 3G?” page, which forms part of the advertising as a whole. This page states, “...3G offers download speeds options from up to 3.6Mbps and 7.2Mbps
When considering this, it appears that the only logical interpretation of the respondent’s references to “HSDPA 3.6” and more particularly “HSDPA 7.2 with HSUPA for free ...“ would be that the 7.2 implies that this is the expected speed. This expectation is reinforced by the qualifier, “... the fastest speeds on the Vodacom Network”. While it may sometimes be that HSDPA 7.2 is a reference to a product only, and while the respondent does not include any speed indicators, like “Mbps” on the complained of page, the fact remains that, when read in totality, the respondent’s advertising creates an association of speed with the “7.2”. Therefore the hypothetical reasonable person would likely link “HSDPA 7.2 with 1-ISUPA for free — the fastest speed on the Vodacom network” as a reference to the speed of 7.2 Mbps and expect such speeds. In addition, the Directorate notes the respondent’s reliance on the opinions of ISPA and Rudolph Muller to support the argument that it has reasonable grounds for believing it can support the demand created by such an expectation. This does not, however, suffice at this time, as the Directorate has not yet seen any evidence that the respondent is capable of delivering speeds of 7.2 Mbps as implied. Based on the above, and in the absence of substantiation to show that the respondent delivers such speeds, the advertising is in breach of Clause 4.1 of Section II of the Code. In light of the above finding, the respondent is required to: • Withdraw the claim “Included are HSDPA 7.2 with HSUPA for free — the fastest speeds on the Vodacom network!...” in its current format; • the process to withdraw the claim must be actioned with immediate effect on receipt of ruling; • the withdrawal of the claim must be completed within the deadlines stipulated by Clause 15.3 of the Procedural Guide; and * the claim may not be used again in its current format. Given the above finding, it is not necessary to consider the Clause 4.2.1 of Section Il and Clause 4 of Section IV of the Code at this time. The complaint is upheld.
The website contains a host of information about the respondent’s “Broadband” product under headings such as “What is 3G?”, “Where can you get it?” and “How much does it cost? As part of the information contained under the heading “How much does it costs?”, it also refers to “Broadband Advanced” and states, inter ella, “Choose one of the, bundles below to get access to the freedom of equal in-bundle and out-of-bundle rates — a first only from Vodacom. Included are HSDPA 7.2 with HSUPA for free — the fastest speeds on the Vodacom network.”. COMPLAINT
In essence, the complainant submitted that the website creates the impression that the advertiser is capable of providing download speeds of 7.2. However, the respondent has confirmed that it cannot provide this speed in his area due to insufficient “backhaul links”.
RELEVANT CLAUSES OF THE CODE OF ADVERTISING PRACTICE
In tight of the complaint the following clauses of the Code were taken into account: • Section II, Clause 4.1 - Substantiation • Section II, Clause 4.2.1 - Misleading claims • Section lV, Clause 4 - Non-availability of advertised products RESPONSE
The advertising agency, DRAFTFCB, on behalf of the respondent, submitted that Vodacom launched a new product strutture consisting. of two services, namely Broadband Standard and Broadband Advanced.
It added that its advertising did not claim speed but rather communicated that the Vodacom network is capable of supporting the HSDPA 3.6 and 7.2 and HSUPA technologies. It was not making “up to x Mbps” claims nor claiming speeds in its product names by including a reference to speed.
It also submitted an article written by Rudolph Muller a lecturer at the University of Johannesburg and founder of mybroadband.co,za. The article states that Vodacom has “switched on 7.2 Mbps HSDPA across its third full generation network which encompasses more than 2700 sites and that Vodacom customers who subscribe to the new Broadband Advanced data option and connect, with HSDPA 7.2 capable devices, will benefit from higher download and upload speeds...” In view of the above it is clear that the advertising does not imply speed, but rather technological capabilities. The respondent did not specifically comment on why the complainant was not able to achieve such speeds. OPINION
The Directorate requested an opinion on the matter from ISPA (Internet Service Providers Association) as to whether the reference to HSDPA 7.2 in the advertising was a reference to a product name or to speed.
lSPA submitted that HSDPA is neither a product name, nor a speed, but rather a reference to a protocol for mobile data transfer which has a maximum speed of 7 ,2Mbits/s it said, however, that if an advert for HSDPA 7.2 service contained no other information about speed of the service, then a reasonable consumer would assume that “7.2” refers to the performance speed of the HSDPA service, In the context of the respondent’s advertisement, the term HSDPA 7.2 does include “7.2” which is a reference to speed of the service. If an advert, however, contains specific information about the performance speed of that service then a reasonable consumer would understand that the term refers to a category of product rather than guaranteed performance speed. It pointed out that the particular page in dispute gives no specifics about speed. However, the website as a whole does contain a “What is 3G?” link, which provides clarity about speeds available. RESPONSE TO THE OPINION The respondent submitted that ISPA is correct in observing that Vodacom uses the term “HSDPA 7.2” to refer to products on the HSDPA 7.2 protocol. ASA DIRECTORATE RULING The ASA Directorate considered all the relevant documentation submitted by the respective parties. Clause 4.1 of Section II states, inter ella, that before advertising is published, advertisers must hold in their possession documentary evidence as set out in Clause 4.1, to support all claims, whether direct or implied, that are capable of objective substantiation. The Directorate is therefore tasked with determining what the statement “Included are HSDPA 7.2 with HSUPA for free — the fastest speeds on the Vodacom network!” is likely to imply to the hypothetical reasonable person. The complainant submitted that despite being a subscriber to the Broadband Advanced service, he has never experienced download speeds in excess of 3.6. Vodacom advised him that it cannot provide the 7.2 speed due to insufficient backhaul links within his vicinity. He also provided the Directorate with speed test results in support of his argument. The respondent submitted that its claim does not communicate speed but rather that the Vodacom network is capable of supporting and sustaining HSDPA 3.6 AND 7.2 technologies. It added that the claim in question did not relate to speed and it was therefore not necessary to submit substantiation in support of the speeds. Furthermore, it does not claim speed or include speed indicators such as Mbps. It added that the Directorate previously considered similar matters namely, MTN HSDPA 3G / Vodacom / 8755 (8 May2007 Telkom / Vodacom / 9322 (17 July 2007), and MTN / J Coetzee & Vodacom / 10749/ 106t29 (17 Aøril 2008). The material difference between the above mentioned rulings and the issue at hand is that, in the above-referenced rulings, the Directorate was asked to determine the validity of a speed claim such as “HSDPA 7.2Mbps” and “HSDPA 3.2Mbps”. In other words, the Directorate had to determine whether or not the claimed speed could be achieved. In the current dispute, the Directorate has to determine whether, in the absence of a reference to “Mbps”, a hypothetical reasonable person would still interpret the claim “HSDPA 7.2” as used on the respondent’s advertising as a reference to speed. The excerpt from Rudolph Muller states, inter alia, Vodacom has “switched on 7.2 MBPS HSDPA across its third full generation network which encompasses more than 2700 sites (and thati Vodacom customers who subscribe to the new Broadband Advanced data option and connect, with HSDPA 7.2 capable devices, will benefit from higher download and upload speeds...” (our emphasis). It is also significant to note that the article by Rudolph Muller is headed “7.2 Mbps HSDPA with bandwidth rollover”. This clearly references speed and implies that this is what consumers are likely to expect or achieve on this product. As such, it appears contradictory to the respondent’s initial argument. This discrepancy, however, is not material, given that the hypothetical reasonable person would not access the article by Mr Muller when considering the respondent’s website. The Directorate is therefore not guided by this article. The opinion submitted by ISPA submitted that HSDPA has a number of different versions, each supporting different data speeds. HSDPA 7.2 refers to a version of HSDPA which supports maximum data rates of 7.2 Mbits/s. ISPA clarified that, in the absence of a specific mention of expected speed, consumers are likely to interpret the digits following the term HSDPA as an indication of the expected speed. It added that “...while it is used in the context of a product in the advertisement, the term ‘HSDPA 7.2’ does include ‘7.2’ which is a reference to speed of the service... “. This appears to support the complainant’s contention that the reference to “7.2” implies that this is the speed offered. ISPA also correctly pointed out that speed claims are made for this product on the respondent’s “What is 3G?” page, which forms part of the advertising as a whole. This page states, “...3G offers download speeds options from up to 3.6Mbps and 7.2Mbps
When considering this, it appears that the only logical interpretation of the respondent’s references to “HSDPA 3.6” and more particularly “HSDPA 7.2 with HSUPA for free ...“ would be that the 7.2 implies that this is the expected speed. This expectation is reinforced by the qualifier, “... the fastest speeds on the Vodacom Network”. While it may sometimes be that HSDPA 7.2 is a reference to a product only, and while the respondent does not include any speed indicators, like “Mbps” on the complained of page, the fact remains that, when read in totality, the respondent’s advertising creates an association of speed with the “7.2”. Therefore the hypothetical reasonable person would likely link “HSDPA 7.2 with 1-ISUPA for free — the fastest speed on the Vodacom network” as a reference to the speed of 7.2 Mbps and expect such speeds. In addition, the Directorate notes the respondent’s reliance on the opinions of ISPA and Rudolph Muller to support the argument that it has reasonable grounds for believing it can support the demand created by such an expectation. This does not, however, suffice at this time, as the Directorate has not yet seen any evidence that the respondent is capable of delivering speeds of 7.2 Mbps as implied. Based on the above, and in the absence of substantiation to show that the respondent delivers such speeds, the advertising is in breach of Clause 4.1 of Section II of the Code. In light of the above finding, the respondent is required to: • Withdraw the claim “Included are HSDPA 7.2 with HSUPA for free — the fastest speeds on the Vodacom network!...” in its current format; • the process to withdraw the claim must be actioned with immediate effect on receipt of ruling; • the withdrawal of the claim must be completed within the deadlines stipulated by Clause 15.3 of the Procedural Guide; and * the claim may not be used again in its current format. Given the above finding, it is not necessary to consider the Clause 4.2.1 of Section Il and Clause 4 of Section IV of the Code at this time. The complaint is upheld.
This is so stupid , why go through all this effort of investigating ,
we all know that NO ISP can guarantee 4mbs uninterrupted so why would VC tell us you you are going to get 7.2mbs. this was probably your argument to them PROSEAL
we all know that NO ISP can guarantee 4mbs uninterrupted so why would VC tell us you you are going to get 7.2mbs. this was probably your argument to them PROSEAL
Jannie being an "on-the-ball-guy" has updated himself I guess!!!
Sackboy
Executive Member
I believe this is the heart of the problem. It's a deception really.
Does this mean all Vodacom ads refering to 7.2 must go?
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Jannie did many great things, for Vodacom and for clients. This was not his best moment. I'd rather remember him for the great things than for this, but yes, it is deceptive, and many of us pointed it out in this forum.Actually, I'm pretty involved and created the HSDPA 7.2, HSDPA 1.8, etc. product names.
As with most things in life, getting the product positioning right is influenced by many factors. One of the main challenges here is how to tie the product name in with the hardware required to get the service.
There must be a easy way for a customer to connect the product with the device he is going to guy. We already see 3 different HSDPA speeds in devices (1.8, 3.6 and 7.2) and these will soon be joined by even more (10.8, 14.4, 28.8).
If you now have profile based products (like VC has), they need to be easily associated with the correct modem specs.
So HSDPA-1.8 requires a modem that supports 1.8, HSDPA-3.6 requires a 3.6 modem and so on.
The new naming (BB-S, BB-A and more to come) effectively include the relevant products, i.e. BB-S includes HSDPA-3.6 and BB-A includes HSDPA-7.2.
I will agree with you that training and marketing should be more clear. For example, I suggested that we downplay the HSDPA-7.2 part of BB-A and focus on the flat-rate component as this is the ONLY reason we created BB-A. Unfortunately this did not happen the way I would have liked to see it.
I think this is silly. The advertised speed on the N1 is 120, should I be disappointed every morning when I am unable to obtain that speed?