A question about extra-marital affairs?

@artie.So much for it takes 2 to tango.Have you seen the movie Unfaithful?
What would you have done if you were Richard Gere's character?
 
Arthur said:
/snip
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it all sounds terribly grand but i can't help but think that if you take offspring out of the equation, the structure of marriage kind of loses a lot of its purpose. which is largely what's happening in current day society.

people are living longer, infant mortality is dropping, and as a species we simply aren't in much danger of dying out.
while we may still have the vestigial biological imperatives to reproduce and find partners which ensure successful genetic inheritance, the end goal simply isn't as clear cut to everybody as it used to be.

as a result, in the last century, we have seen the rise of women as not just baby machines, but as careered professionals, we see mass adoption of contraception, less social pressure for marriage, greater acceptance of transgenderism and non-heterosexuality, people having children later on in life and many couples and singles simply choosing to not have children. we see high divorce rates because women are no longer trapped in marriages by children, financial dependence and social pressure. women now also have the choice of abortion, which, combined with contraception means that whether sex is consensual or not, they don't have to live with the sole responsibility of being the one who carries the child.

none of which really excludes a lifetime of monogomy, more than it poses the question of why it is optimal.
 
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murraybiscuit said:
remind me what the difference is between animals and humans again.
i forget.
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Animals merely feed to survive and reproduce. They have not developed any skills that go beyond their survival needs. The Humans are known for their curiosity to understand and to try and influence and change their environment. It is this curiosity in the Humans that has lead to the development of advanced tools, technology and science. The human behavior is much different from the animals as we have set purposes in life that go beyond the survival needs of day today
 
theone said:
.
Originally Posted by Arthur:

I don't mind being a a cuckold it's radical but it works for me.
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I condensed all those words into one sentence for you.
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Not even vaguely close, sad to say.

I mind very much indeed. Few things are more painful. But it doesn't have mean the end. Love is also a decision. It is not a feeling.
 
Devill said:
I can see Arthur's point. It does work for some.

I am not one of those it will work for however. You cheat on me and it is bye bye.
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And if you cheat on her?

Have you never pursued a path you later regret and see as folly? Ditto for her. We are both fallible, and we do fail in our own ways and weaknesses. I'm pretty sure most of the stone-throwers weren't adulterers themselves. Self-richeousness is poison in a relationship. We can and do make mistakes. Learning to live with them and take responsibility for them means just that -- living with them, facing up to them, not letting them get the better of you and destroy something beautiful.

Forgiving adultery is hard. But not forgiving traps you even more deeply, because it freezes out compassion and love. Are you so faultless yourself? (Maybe not sexual infidelity perhaps, but in other things).

Without this kind of commitment, why bother getting married?
 
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JungleBoy said:
Animals merely feed to survive and reproduce. They have not developed any skills that go beyond their survival needs. The Humans are known for their curiosity to understand and to try and influence and change their environment. It is this curiosity in the Humans that has lead to the development of advanced tools, technology and science. The human behavior is much different from the animals as we have set purposes in life that go beyond the survival needs of day today
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i'm not really keen on turning this into another dolphin and bonobos thread, so i'll just say that i don't really agree with a large amount of the assumptions you make.
at the end of the day, we live, we die and most of our life is defined by eating, sleeping, reproducing and activities which facilitate these biological imperatives.
we add layers of abstraction the higher up maslow's heirarchy we climb, but ultimately we answer to the needs of our bodies.
 
Arthur said:
I can well understand your perspective.

Here's mine:

The vow I make is that I will love and cherish her and remain (sexually, emotionally and financially) faithful to her as long as either of us lives, no matter what she does, or how much or little she has, or how healthy or sick she becomes. I have no fingers crossed behind my back, no ifs and no buts. My vow to her is utterly unconditional and for the duration of her or my natural life (ie, only her or my death can extinguiish the marital bond). Furthermore, I do not enter into any antenuptial agreements (even though I am wealthy), and cede to her not half of what I have, but everything, to be jointly and mutually held.

These are but words, but they are words for which I freely and fully and unreservedly mean and intend and resolve all that they can and do mean (if you get my meaning).

That is marriage, in my view. Anything less is just not worth it.

The marvellous thing is: she means the same. What a magnificent liberation this is, for both of us! It even makes the sex better, and completely without risk.

Words, you say? Yes, I know. Of course life happens.

Now, say she is (sexually) unfaithful, or even leaves me and moves in with someone else? My vow to her was and remains unconditional and was not premised on her actual subsequent behaviour, even if that were in contravention of her vows to me. My marriage is not just a conditional quid pro quo arrangement, where I give only so long as she gives, and vv. Part of the very essence of it is that I remain faithful no matter what she does. Sexual infidelity, though serious, is not the worst that can happen. Not by a long chalk.

Marriage is a great risk. We venture our whole selves in the hope that the other will deliver. It's a risk. But anything less is not enough. You cannot gain more than you venture. And if you venture everything, you gain everything. It's a serious business, probably the most serious of all things you can do (and the font of children). You need to be very sure before you get married. Talk these things through thoroughly. Know your prospective spouse thoroughly so you can be sure you intend and mean your commitment to her, and she her commitment to you.

Though our vows to one another are mutual and reciprocal, any subsequent failure in reciprosity cannot release me from my vows. I can and will continue to love her and will the best for her and remain faithful to her even if she is living with someone else, always hoping that she will revivify our marriage. So, neither I not my wife can end our marriage - whichis why we made it as a vow to Almighty God and not just some government official. Neither can mutual agreement end it, for in this view marriage is not just a legal contract. It is a covenant, ie a mutual self-donation without condition.

It is my experience after many years of marriage that anything less than this will certainly end in great personal catastrophe for us and our kids, and we've certainly had our tests.

If you don't intend this when you marry, then don't make the vows. You are swearing a solemn oath not just to your spouse, but also to Almighty God. Mean what you say, or have the guts to not perjure yourself and perform a sacrilege for the sake of form. And if you don't believe this, make it very clear to your future spouse exactly what you do believe, so she can know where you're at. Anything less is deception of the most devious kind.

Oh, and course I know other people have different definitions of marriage. They just don't work for me because they deliver too little, they're too unradical, too wimpsih, too weak, too vague, too small for everything that I want to give and to get and to do and to be with my beloved woman. And I feel sorry for people who have a lesser view of marriage - they dramatically reduce their chances of reaching the ecstacies of love and security that such a solemn and inconditional commitment brings.
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Your little speech is all very stirring and all that but I am willing to bet that she's still cheating on you because there were no consequences. Chances are that your wife and her paramour are laughing at you behind your back.

Unless you are a closet cuckold or really don't mind that she sleeps around you're being taken for a ride.
 
Arthur said:
I can well understand your perspective.

Here's mine:

The vow I make is that I will love and cherish her and remain (sexually, emotionally and financially) faithful to her as long as either of us lives, no matter what she does, or how much or little she has, or how healthy or sick she becomes. I have no fingers crossed behind my back, no ifs and no buts. My vow to her is utterly unconditional and for the duration of her or my natural life (ie, only her or my death can extinguiish the marital bond). Furthermore, I do not enter into any antenuptial agreements (even though I am wealthy), and cede to her not half of what I have, but everything, to be jointly and mutually held.

These are but words, but they are words for which I freely and fully and unreservedly mean and intend and resolve all that they can and do mean (if you get my meaning).

That is marriage, in my view. Anything less is just not worth it.

The marvellous thing is: she means the same. What a magnificent liberation this is, for both of us! It even makes the sex better, and completely without risk.

Words, you say? Yes, I know. Of course life happens.

Now, say she is (sexually) unfaithful, or even leaves me and moves in with someone else? My vow to her was and remains unconditional and was not premised on her actual subsequent behaviour, even if that were in contravention of her vows to me. My marriage is not just a conditional quid pro quo arrangement, where I give only so long as she gives, and vv. Part of the very essence of it is that I remain faithful no matter what she does. Sexual infidelity, though serious, is not the worst that can happen. Not by a long chalk.

Marriage is a great risk. We venture our whole selves in the hope that the other will deliver. It's a risk. But anything less is not enough. You cannot gain more than you venture. And if you venture everything, you gain everything. It's a serious business, probably the most serious of all things you can do (and the font of children). You need to be very sure before you get married. Talk these things through thoroughly. Know your prospective spouse thoroughly so you can be sure you intend and mean your commitment to her, and she her commitment to you.

Though our vows to one another are mutual and reciprocal, any subsequent failure in reciprosity cannot release me from my vows. I can and will continue to love her and will the best for her and remain faithful to her even if she is living with someone else, always hoping that she will revivify our marriage. So, neither I not my wife can end our marriage - whichis why we made it as a vow to Almighty God and not just some government official. Neither can mutual agreement end it, for in this view marriage is not just a legal contract. It is a covenant, ie a mutual self-donation without condition.

It is my experience after many years of marriage that anything less than this will certainly end in great personal catastrophe for us and our kids, and we've certainly had our tests.

If you don't intend this when you marry, then don't make the vows. You are swearing a solemn oath not just to your spouse, but also to Almighty God. Mean what you say, or have the guts to not perjure yourself and perform a sacrilege for the sake of form. And if you don't believe this, make it very clear to your future spouse exactly what you do believe, so she can know where you're at. Anything less is deception of the most devious kind.

Oh, and course I know other people have different definitions of marriage. They just don't work for me because they deliver too little, they're too unradical, too wimpsih, too weak, too vague, too small for everything that I want to give and to get and to do and to be with my beloved woman. And I feel sorry for people who have a lesser view of marriage - they dramatically reduce their chances of reaching the ecstacies of love and security that such a solemn and inconditional commitment brings.
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The problem is that, sometimes, when you venture everything you lose everything. Since we're talking about your entire life's happiness here, I can only view your commitment to sacrifice it for someone who isn't willing to do the same for you with contempt. I agree with your later post, it is weakness. Marriage, to you, is an absolution from your responsibility to your own happiness. It's a recipe for victimhood which for some is their comfort zone.
 
Contempt, eh? If you seriously think that permanent fidelity is an abdication of personal responsibility we live in different universes. Do you seriously think the immense effort it takes to forgive and remain faithful can be accomplished by, er, abdication and resignation? If so, you have much to learn about hard work and relationship.

Try it and tell me if you're abdicating
 
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I didn't respond to a very touching and valid point you made: sometimes you venture and lose. Yes.

My advice is don't give up. Fight. Woo. Work harder than you've ever worked before to win her back. Reach down deep and draw on the best you have to beat the other ******** ~ your wife will be grateful that you've risen to the challenge and regard her as worth enduring immense pain for. You are a man, not a mouse. Lead. Fight. Win. And work hard to change the idiot in you that drove her into someone elses bed (or do you think she's just a whore, in which case one has to wonder what and why you married in the first place, which brings us back to the seriousness of marriage I spoke of earlier ~ "not entered into lightly but soberly").
 
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Arthur said:
Contempt, eh? If you seriously think that permanent fidelity is an abdication of personal responsibility we live in different universes. Do you seriously think the immense effort it takes to forgive and remain faithful can be accomplished by, er, abdication and resignation? If so, you have much to learn about hard work and relationship.

Try it and tell me if you're abdicating
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Arthur said:
I didn't respond to a very touching and valid point you made: sometimes you venture and lose. Yes.

My advice is don't give up. Fight. Woo. Work harder than you've ever worked before to win her back. Reach down deep and draw on the best you have to beat the other ******** ~ your wife will be grateful that you've risen to the challenge and regard her as worth enduring immense pain for. You are a man, not a mouse. Lead. Fight. Win. And work hard to change the idiot in you that drove her into someone elses bed (or do you think she's just a whore, in which case one has to wonder what and why you married in the first place, which brings us back to the seriousness of marriage I spoke of earlier ~ "not entered into lightly but soberly").
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Ah, the inevitable condescension of one who has convinced himself of the correctness of his life choices.

Perhaps I misjudged your motivation, but there are plenty of weak little men out there who are alone and blaming their exes for their failed marriages because they think getting married entitles them to unconditional love.

Having said that, women aren't exactly the powerless little followers you seem to think they are. It takes two to tango. A man can't take full responsibility for the success of his marriage.
 
@arthur.I think you're confusing your own marriage to a real situation of infidelity.The dynamics change when you're on the receiving end of an xtra marital affair.The very thing that you hold sacred becomes compromised irrespective of how devoted you are.

Its like having a faithful hard working irreplacable employee steal from you.Even if the person promises to never do it again and you decide to keep him you'll never view that person in the same light.

This insecurity based on failed trust makes it unfeasable to continue the union.
 
Arthur said:
I didn't respond to a very touching and valid point you made: sometimes you venture and lose. Yes.

My advice is don't give up. Fight. Woo. Work harder than you've ever worked before to win her back. Reach down deep and draw on the best you have to beat the other ******** ~ your wife will be grateful that you've risen to the challenge and regard her as worth enduring immense pain for. You are a man, not a mouse. Lead. Fight. Win. And work hard to change the idiot in you that drove her into someone elses bed (or do you think she's just a whore, in which case one has to wonder what and why you married in the first place, which brings us back to the seriousness of marriage I spoke of earlier ~ "not entered into lightly but soberly").
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So in your opinion... is a woman that gets married to a man that she firmly does love and believes is "the one" at the time of marriage, only to find out that her loving husband loves nothing more than to use her as his personal punch bag over and over again, wrong to want to get divorced?

I admire your wanting to make things right etc but I cannot think that the logic of "no way out" is the correct one. I have been married for 15 years and as you mentioned there has been "tests" on my side of the fence and so I can only think that my wife has endured the same. I have remained faithful and will try my utmost to carry on doing so. I can only hope that my wife has done the same but if i do find out that she has been unfaithful, it will be the end of the marriage. This will not be a surprise to her and if the roles are reversed I will also not be surprised for her leaving me. When we got married we both told one another that if it did happen it was goodbye.. No stories "of I was drunk and did not know what i was doing" or such like, no remorse basically no excuses. So in essence I supposed this is another little verbal clause we added to our vows.
 
murraybiscuit said:
i'm not really keen on turning this into another dolphin and bonobos thread, so i'll just say that i don't really agree with a large amount of the assumptions you make.
at the end of the day, we live, we die and most of our life is defined by eating, sleeping, reproducing and activities which facilitate these biological imperatives.
we add layers of abstraction the higher up maslow's heirarchy we climb, but ultimately we answer to the needs of our bodies.
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Ok the needs might be the same but how we satisfy those needs differs a lot between animals and humans. We humans have the unique ability to perceive time in the past and more importantly in the future. Hence we have the abilty to deliberately plan for future needs and may even forgo today's needs in favour of tomorow"s. You pack your lunch in the morning in anticipation of future hunger. You invest in your retirement because you can see into the future, i.e.getting old and unable to work. You can also adjust your saving strategies depending on what condtions you forsee in the future. No animal is able to do that. The closest they get to that is by stockpiling food in anticipation of change of seasons, or migration to favourable environments. But that is all instictive hence they keep doing it the same way every time without any adjustments. Bottom line is animals are driven by instinct only. We humans, on the other hand rely less on instinct and tend to follow learnt behaviour. In fact follwoing your instints as a human could be more harmful to yourself, our soroundings and those around you.
 
Ancalagon said:
What the hell is blue waffles?

I think a lot of humans do it for the excitement, the thrill. Or it could be that they think their spouse doesnt appreciate them, or isnt affectionate enough towards them.

I'd bet in most cases that sex is an essential part of it, but not the only part. The cuddling and sweet nothings matter a lot.
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Yes.All humans are hardwired to feel appreciated and seek attention.
Sex is the ultimate expression of feeling loved and wanted it goes without saying that the possibility of intercourse is a very strong motivator.
If no sex is possible the motivation is greatly reduced.
 
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