ADSL router and lightning

Method said:
Yes :p I can't keep replacing it.
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Then learn how direct lightning strikes without damage were routine even 100 years ago. Your telco's massive switching computer suffers about 100 surges with each storm. How often is your town without phone service for four days while they replace that massive switching computer? Never. Because a much less expensive, well proven, and superior solution is used.

Any useful recommendation will say where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate with each strike. Even a protector does not fail during a direct strike. But that means learning how technology works and not what is promoted by advertising.

Your damage means an electric current was incoming on one wire (ie AC electric) while the same current at the same time was outgoing on some other wire (ie telephone). Often damage is on the outgoing path. But many only use speculation. Then assume a surge must have entered on a phone line.

If any wire in any incoming cable does not properly connect to what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules, then you have no effective protection. Magic box solutions that would somehow disconnect or block a surge are best considered expensive scams. Your choice is to request this completely different solution (expect much reading). Or just keep buying those more expensive solutions. This proven and simpler solution requires revisting even concepts that were taught in primary school science. And remembering how electricity works. Both an incoming and a completely different outgoing path must exist.
 
Hi Westom, I am sure you did not intend it, but your message above implies that the Astraphobe may be some kind of scam. Its not, it works very well.

But it is a magic box...the sensing technology the Astraphobe employs to sense the storms was developed over years, and its kind of cool having your own storm monitor warning you of incoming storms. Your post above talks about damage on incoming or outgoing path, and ends with the sentence that both an incoming and outgoing path must exist for electricity to flow - its this principle that the Astraphobe relies on, it disconnects the phone line hence there is no path. At least not between the line, the router, the Ethernet network etc. Hence the router is ok. This principle has been relied upon for years, either unplugging the line, or some guys installing fibre converters so an element of the network is isolated by the glass. As many on this forum will attest to, this does work.

To try compare a normal house with a custom built data centre that the Telco's use for switching centres is not valid. Sure the principles of protection and the physics of a strike remain the same, but most people do not get a chance to build their own house, having studied principles of lightning protection beforehand, or employ an expert to do it for them. And to retrofit afterward, is not easy. Nobody wants to dig up around their house, perhaps ruining their foundations / garden / paving etc, to lay copper earthing cables going to buried spikes. Half the time you don't even know where all the entry points are. Or you presented with practical issues like bricks and mortar or concrete preventing proper installation, minimum bend radius, short cables length etc. Or you renting.

If you PM me your phone number I would be happy to discuss the technology with you.
 
Jorgen said:
Your post above talks about damage on incoming or outgoing path, and ends with the sentence that both an incoming and outgoing path must exist for electricity to flow - its this principle that the Astraphobe relies on, it disconnects the phone line hence there is no path.
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Anything that disconnects to stop a surge is simply a millimeter gap that surges easily cross. How does that switch stop what three miles of sky could not?

Second electrical principle - surges are a curent source. That means voltage increases as necessary so that the current will still flow. Just another reason why disconnecting does not work.

Another product in East Asia markets does this thing better. A receiver detects the storm. Then a box in the basement disconnects all phone lines AND connects them to earth ground. Disconnecting does not provide protection. Connecting a surge (that current source) to earth provides protection. A surge connected to earth only creates a near zero voltage (see above second principle). Therefore the box must be down low to make that all so critically important 'low impedance' (ie less than 3 meter) connection to single point earth ground.

This East Asia device only need connect phone lines to earth for 500 milliseconds - long enough to earth a surge. And so short that any phone conversation is not interrupted or disconnected. IOW protection exists without anyone even knowing a surge existed.

Bottom line: disconnecting never protects from destructive surges (it protects from surges so tiny as to not overwhelm protection already inside all phone appliances). Effective protection always means connecting a surge to what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. If a box does something useful, then that box also says where energy harmlessly dissipates. This has been well understood and proven by over 100 years of science and experience. It is the only proven solution.

BTW, solution need not involve massive digging or reconstruction. COs install better earth ground because this principle applies to all surge protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Protection increases when earthing is upgraded / improved. Even some three meter earth ground rods provide a massive increase in protection. But again, protection is always about where hundreds of thousand of joules dissipate. No way around science even demonstrated by Ben Franklin in 1752.
 
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westom said:
Anything that disconnects to stop a surge is simply a millimeter gap that surges easily cross. How does that switch stop what three miles of sky could not?
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Easy. It does not have to stop what 3km of sky could not. It only has to stop whatever has been induced in the line. And it's not millimetres, but around 11cm.

I really did not want to get into a pi$$ing competition on a public forum. But I was irritated enough by your circular arguments and contradictions to google "Westom". After finding http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=643983 and on this forum http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/241984-Popped-blown-broken-speakers/page2 and several others I now realise that one cannot reason with you. I will not respond further.
 
Jorgen said:
Easy. It does not have to stop what 3km of sky could not. It only has to stop whatever has been induced in the line. And it's not millimetres, but around 11cm.
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We know that induced spikes do not create 10 cm sparks. We also know induced surges can create thousands of volts on long wire antennas. One popular solution is an NE-2 (inexpensive) neon glow lamp. A less than one milliamp conducted by that neon bulb redcues thsouands of volts down to tens. How do tens of voltage even cross a one millimeter gap? They don't.

Induced surges have near zero current. That means a tiniest protector makes such surges irrelevant. Destructive surges are from other events such as direct lightning strikes, stray cars, and rodent shorting electrical wiring. Why do I discuss these and you run away?

This is not a pissing contest. This is science challenging your claims with numbers. Described was how your competitor does it to protect even from direct lightning strikes. Described was how protection has been done in every facility that cannot have damage. Even posted was an AT&T discussion on how DSL lines are best protected. This stuff comes with numbers. A reply without numbers is easily challenged and does not describe the electrical nature of destructive surges. Induced surges are made irrelevant by protection already found inside phone appliances.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Those who cannot discuss that number may get angry or even run away. For homeowners, a potentially destructive anomaly might ocucr once every seven years. Discussed is what every telco all over the world has learned from their every switching station. As even discussed in late 1950 Bell System Technical Journal papers (because switching stations were replacing mechanical relays with transistors). Their massive and expensive computer is confronted by about 100 surges with each storm. They never disconnect. They all do what the AT&T forums says.

I have simply challenged you to post recommendations based in well proven science. How does disconnecting avert damage from all those surges when every proven solution always requires proper earthing? Why does your competitor do it without even interrupting a telephone conversation? Telco (ie DSL) wires also require a low impedance (ie 'less than 3 meter') connection to single point earth ground. Then one knows where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

If your solution is effective, then posted was where hundreds of thousand of joules harmlessly dissipate. Many cannot. So they get angry - attack the messeger - rather than learn how protection was done even 100 years ago. Direct lightning strikes without damage even before semiconductors (transistors) existed. I don't care if you are angry. That is complely irrelevant to anyone. I only posted facts based in science and with numbers. Based in concept proven by over 100 years of world wide experience. This solution is routine in every nation. This AT&T discussion says how to protect DSL lines and what does not protect them:
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthr...e-tried-it?p=14909810&viewfull=1#post14909810
 
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Still deciding on a lightning protector.

Flatmate got a TP-Link router as replacement...what a **** router. Wireless signal is just terrible -.-
 
Method said:
Still deciding on a lightning protector.

Flatmate got a TP-Link router as replacement...what a **** router. Wireless signal is just terrible -.-
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I am quite happy with mine. Excelent wifi range and signal strength on 2.4Ghz. 5Ghz struggeling with the many walls.
 
biometrics said:
Bump. Does this device work? http://www.astraphobe.com/

Just had my first lightning strike in the Cape and lost a router, switch, adsl filter and cabling.
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Is there a lightning storm now in Hermanus?

Most of my clients are in PTA, and that device didn't solve the problem completely, if a lightning bolt can go from the heavens to earth, it can jump the small opening that box provide when opening the switch...

Best way I found is to make use of 1.5m or longer fibre, to isolate your lan from the telephone network. You also need to isolate the power network.

I also found that if the telephone cables are underground, you have nearly no issues, overhead cables are prone to direct hit or induction. I had a place in PTA in a complex, and never had one problem in 6 years, altough my friend 10km away had to replace multiple switches and routers.

Clearline have diffrent kind of protection, my friend implemented a network protector an telephone line protector, from then till now he didn't loose anything yet. But direct hit... Nothing would work
 
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biometrics said:
Bump. Does this device work?
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Do you really think a millimeters gap in that device will somehow stop what three miles of sky could not?

A completely different product does same in a manner that makes it effective. Anything that would stop or block a surge is bogus. This other device would detect lightning strikes (distant or nearby). Then connect all incoming phone (DSL) wires low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to earth ground. IOW a 'disconnecting and short to earth' device was in the basement or service entrance. A lightning detector (radio receiver) was upstairs.

A disconnect and shorted to earth phone (or DSL line) for only milliseconds means an ongoing phone or DSL connection remains uninterrupted.

For over 100 years, every CO used single point earth grounds with protectors connected low impedance to that earth ground. COs may suffer about 100 surges with each storm. How often is your town without phone service for four days while they replace that damaged $multi-million computer? Never? Because they do not waste money on expensive 'magic boxes'. They simply use a 100+ year proven and superior solution - that every homeowner can also have.

Unfortunately, most homeowners are educated only by hearsay and wild speculation. Where is one fact or number that proves the astraphobe effective? No facts and numbers are a first indication of a scam. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Any solution that ignores well proven solutions is, well, notice it magically stops what three miles of sky could not. Effective protection means you know where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. How many forgot to demand these numbers?
 
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Whoa! Can you give me a simple answer and/or product please?
 
biometrics said:
Whoa! Can you give me a simple answer and/or product please?
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Any layman either knows this or learns it the hard way. Any recommendation that does not say why and does not include numbers is probably a scam. That post was new information. That means, like all other reading, it requires multiple rereads. The simple answer is obvious. Will centimeter parts in the astraphobe stop or block what three kilometers of sky could not? Again, an answer with numbers.

Protection means your solution says where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Where does astraphobe even discuss that? It doesn't. They are marketing to naive consumers who never want to know what it does and never demand numbers.

So, do you want a recommendation for that astraphbobe? Or do you want a solution proven by 100 years of science and experience? That also costs tens of times less money? Well again. That means learning what an effective solution does. And requesting relevant numbers. None of this is complicated. It is based on concepts originally taught in primary school science. But it is also new - will require careful reading.

Every useful recommendation revolves around the most critical component introduced in that previous post - earth ground. Again, protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed.
 
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biometrics said:
Suggest some products then.
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The entire solution starts with a single point earth ground. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. That means every wire in every incoming cable make a low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to this always required feature.

Does not matter if utility wire is underground or overhead. It is still the source of incoming surges. This applies to every utility wire and even wires to remote controlled lawn sprinklers.

Cable TV needs no protector. A hardwire makes that low impedance connection directly to the single point ground. That means cable (like all other incoming wires) must be routed to enter at a common service entrance. Or routed to make a low impedance connect to a larger single point earth ground. A utility demonstrates good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions at: http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp

Telephone (or DSL) does not work if connected directly to this earth ground. So a 'whole house' protector does what the hardwire alone does better. Numerous professional companies provide these including Keison, Polyphaser, Siemens, ABB, Leviton, Clipsal, Novaris, and many smaller local companies. Brand name says little. Critical is that a protector is designed low capacitance for phone and DSL. And that it has the 'always required' connection for a hardwire from that protector to what actually does all protection - single point earth ground.

The most common source of damage to DSL and other electronics is AC mains. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So this 'whole house' protector must be at least 50,000 amps. And, of course, have a dedicated wire to make that low impedance (ie no sharp bends) connection to earth ground. Manufacturers of these include Keison, Siemens, ABB, General Electric, Novaris, Eaton, etc. In each case, the responsible solution comes from companies that also make reliable products such as your mains panel and circuit breakers in that panel. Brand names say little. Important is that number (ie 50,000 amps) and that a dedicated wire exists to make that low impedance (ie wire not inside metallic conduit) connection to earth.

How do you make that protector better? Upgrade the earthing. Protectors are only doing what that hardwire (ie for cable TV) does better. Quality of and connection to single point earth ground determines how effective during each surge. Ask your supplies for a 'whole house' protector for telephone and for AC electric. Then learn if its spec numbers are sufficient. But most important, upgrade the only item that defines protection - single point earth ground.
 
It seems to me a fibre cable connected to the router lan outputs leading to a PC would stop a surge passing to the PC. However On both occasions I have lost two routers (TP Link and ZTE) as well as Ethernet ports. Why would this happen over a fibre cable?
 
Khoiti said:
It seems to me a fibre cable connected to the router lan outputs leading to a PC would stop a surge passing to the PC. However On both occasions I have lost two routers (TP Link and ZTE) as well as Ethernet ports. Why would this happen over a fibre cable?
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EMP induction was great enough to damage sensitive port IC's?
 
It appears so. I am on my third router (D-Link) with the previous two having been fried in the last five months. The fibre cable stretches 10 meters to my PC. In each instance, the port got fried, but not the cable which I was able to connect to second and third computer and worked.

Incidentally in the the D-Link router, there is an option to connect the phone line first to the power adaptor supplied with the router. The power adapter has in and out jacks so that the phone may not directly connect to the router, but via the jacks in the adaptor. How good a protection is this?
 
Khoiti said:
It seems to me a fibre cable connected to the router lan outputs leading to a PC would stop a surge passing to the PC.
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Immediately obvious. You think a surge can be stopped. That right there says you are not getting it. Once that surge is inside (due to human mistakes), then nothing can stop a destructive hunt for earth. Nothing can stop or block a surge.

The solution is always about connecting that surge to earth BEFORE it can enter a building. There is no magic box protection.

EMP is also a popular urban myth made obvious by speculation without numbers. That myth about EMP induction was debunked previously. And still some want to believe it only because basic concepts are ignored; therefore speculation is trying to come up with rationalization.

If that surge was all but invited inside, then many things (including wood, some wall paints, and even linoleum tile) become electrical conductors. More potentially destructive paths. For the fiber optic solution to work means every connection (including AC power) must be via a fiber.

No way around over 100 years of well proven science and experience. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. And never about stopping or blocking a surge.
 
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