Advice for junior IT positions

[AlphaJohn]

Only Advice I have:
Pick another profession. Seriously... do anything else but IT.

/me sitting here writing code on a bloody long weekend while family sitting in the living room watching TV.

 

[biometrics]

Close, VB.Net. So it's not that different from C#, but it's not a desirable language for your CV and it isn't what was promised up front. The other guys who started with me were equally surprised when they found out we'll be coding in that instead of C#. I've actually been told outright in two interviews that VB.Net counts against me.

VB.Net is very much current just not popular in certain segments.

Based on TIOBE (if you believe their methodology) it's used by as many developers as C#: https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

Even VB6 is still on the top 20 list. Though still in use I wouldn't describe it as current.

 

[MagicDude4Eva]

So a big bump.

About 3 1/2 months into the position I chose, I finally decided to draw a line and quit. <snip>

A few thoughts (from an employer perspective and someone who has run a small internship program for a few years):
- A company offering an internship program should have a concrete internship program with milestones:
* In our Java internship program over 12 months you will do the Sun Java Associate and Programmer certs and if you are proficient enough also the Web-component cert.
* Alongside you will be exposed to the full development SLA and work with peers as well as independently with the idea of deploying into production (even if it is just a small JSP) within 3 months
* We do not send interns on formal training and all training is done with certification material during working hours and with help from peers. Work is generally independent (i.e. little/no hand-holding)
- It would not be my expectation that you would stay on after the 12 months, but it would be my expectation that you are committed for the 12 months
- Internship salary would start off at 8,5K / pm and after internship would accelerate based on skill-level

From your description your internship was nothing more than the company finding employees with the idea to pay as little as possible - hence "internship". It would be interesting to understand what technology stack they are using.

FWIW: In immature work-environments you will often find that "senior" staff feel intimidated about new hires (fear of becoming redundant). I would actually welcome new hires to take some load off and there should never be a situation where someone becomes redundant. At best a senior will be able to safely take leave without having to worry as new hires will be able to pick up the slack for a period of time.

I am not saying that Zoopy is that person, but I also had staff in other environments where they did not want to lift a finger (they were hired as developers and wanted to be "architects") and as such would not want to write a line of code (i.e. the pushed the SQL queries to a DBA and their sentiment was generally "this is not my job" although it was part of their targets/KPA) - those staff I typically faced at larger corporates (especially banks and telcos).

My suggestion would always be when you start out:
- Find a dev body-shop (the likes of BBD, DVT, Edge etc hate it when I call them that, but they are body shops) - you will get the most exposure and skill at the price of having no life or -
- Find a small company with a dedicated and well structured IT team where IT/development is part of the core function of the business and not some supporting function (i.e. maintaining 3rd-party code)
- Never join a bank/corporate as a developer - you will not learn much and red tape everywhere
- Change jobs 3-4 years and start to settle after 3-4 job changes once you have found a company where you will be able to get revenue share
- Never, ever just join a company for the money - it's meaningless in the long run and you will mostly blow it (also make sure that your salary equates your skill-set)
- Be prepared to drop your salary if you find a company which runs a compelling business and technology but is not able to pay competitively (in fairness, most SMEs will not be able to match salaries of banks, teclos and government).

 

[Pho3nix]

My suggestion would always be when you start out:
- Find a dev body-shop (the likes of BBD, DVT, Edge etc hate it when I call them that, but they are body shops) - you will get the most exposure and skill at the price of having no life or -
- Find a small company with a dedicated and well structured IT team where IT/development is part of the core function of the business and not some supporting function (i.e. maintaining 3rd-party code)
- Never join a bank/corporate as a developer - you will not learn much and red tape everywhere
- Change jobs 3-4 years and start to settle after 3-4 job changes once you have found a company where you will be able to get revenue share
- Never, ever just join a company for the money - it's meaningless in the long run and you will mostly blow it (also make sure that your salary equates your skill-set)
- Be prepared to drop your salary if you find a company which runs a compelling business and technology but is not able to pay competitively (in fairness, most SMEs will not be able to match salaries of banks, teclos and government).

Listen to this man!!!

 

[zippy]

@magicdude,

It's a bit of a generalisation to say that you won't learn anything in a bank/corporate. I have never worked in a bank, but I have worked in the healthcare insurance industry in SA in corporate. I have worked for large corporate in the U.K. which had the large UK govt contract. Currently I work in short term insurance company which is listed on the FTSE250. My experience at all 3 has been positive. At the first company in SA, I wasn't in IT, and they paid for the courses and the mentoring I received from my team leader and the IT Manager was brilliant. In the U.K., I also received excellent support when the company switched from an Oracle Forms based system to a J2EE based system.

I have met as many people who can tell horror stories about small dev shops not paying them or being unable to afford training as with corporates. Bad management styles occur in both.

The simple fact is that you have to find this out yourself. General question like "is a corporate better than a small dev shop", is a silly question. Ask for peoples experience with individual companies. If you get a negative report, check with someone else to verify that it's not just sour grapes.

 

[Pho3nix]

@magicdude,

It's a bit of a generalisation to say that you won't learn anything in a bank/corporate. I have never worked in a bank, but I have worked in the healthcare insurance industry in SA in corporate. I have worked for large corporate in the U.K. which had the large UK govt contract. Currently I work in short term insurance company which is listed on the FTSE250. My experience at all 3 has been positive. At the first company in SA, I wasn't in IT, and they paid for the courses and the mentoring I received from my team leader and the IT Manager was brilliant. In the U.K., I also received excellent support when the company switched from an Oracle Forms based system to a J2EE based system.

I have met as many people who can tell horror stories about small dev shops not paying them or being unable to afford training as with corporates. Bad management styles occur in both.

The simple fact is that you have to find this out yourself. General question like "is a corporate better than a small dev shop", is a silly question. Ask for peoples experience with individual companies. If you get a negative report, check with someone else to verify that it's not just sour grapes.

From experience. You don't get as much flexibility in learning something "different" as you would working for dev houses and being moved between clients.

 

[MagicDude4Eva]

@magicdude,

It's a bit of a generalisation to say that you won't learn anything in a bank/corporate.

Not really: Most corporates will not be very agile. As a developer you will probably never touch a production server. Red tape, politics, legal compliance and other aspects will in one way or another stifle your growth and you will do interesting work but at a much lower pace and with much less responsibility. Working in corporate environments has so many tiers that there will always be some sort of finger pointing (the business analyst, the architect, the tester, the project manager, the ops team, the business unit etc) if something goes wrong.

I do however agree that this is mostly true in SA and I have not experienced this type of culture in Europe. I have worked for 3 of the big local banks and their IT is horrible and the majority of staff is complacent and overpaid for the skillset they have (I know this will upset people, but I have worked in these environments and the people I worked with or worked for very not particularly smart or passionate about their work).

 

[SauRoNZA]

Only Advice I have:
Pick another profession. Seriously... do anything else but IT.

/me sitting here writing code on a bloody long weekend while family sitting in the living room watching TV.

That sounds more like a time management problem than an IT problem.

Odds are it would be the same in any other business for you.

 

[AlphaJohn]

.......

I do however agree that this is mostly true in SA and I have not experienced this type of culture in Europe. I have worked for 3 of the big local banks and their IT is horrible and the majority of staff is complacent and overpaid for the skillset they have (I know this will upset people, but I have worked in these environments and the people I worked with or worked for very not particularly smart or passionate about their work).

Saw the same when I worked for a large corp and we had to move some countries to the same system. Everybody else in the project only knew their limited area. Linux guy don't touch Windows and did not know how to configure AD or change Exchange settings and the same with Microsoft people, had no idea what sendmail was. It was frustrating as hell to get anything done.

That sounds more like a time management problem than an IT problem.

Odds are it would be the same in any other business for you.

Doubt it, any other business I would have told the boss to shove it. Noticed the smiley?

 

[SauRoNZA]

Doubt it, any other business I would have told the boss to shove it. Noticed the smiley?

So why are you writing code on a long weekend then?

None of our dev guys do any work outside of 9-5.

If they did they certainly wouldn't be allowed to bill for it so it just doesn't happen.

 

[AlphaJohn]

So why are you writing code on a long weekend then?

None of our dev guys do any work outside of 9-5.

If they did they certainly wouldn't be allowed to bill for it so it just doesn't happen.

Because I'm a Sys Admin, not developer

 

[Ninji]

Not really: Most corporates will not be very agile. As a developer you will probably never touch a production server. Red tape, politics, legal compliance and other aspects will in one way or another stifle your growth and you will do interesting work but at a much lower pace and with much less responsibility. Working in corporate environments has so many tiers that there will always be some sort of finger pointing (the business analyst, the architect, the tester, the project manager, the ops team, the business unit etc) if something goes wrong.

I do however agree that this is mostly true in SA and I have not experienced this type of culture in Europe. I have worked for 3 of the big local banks and their IT is horrible and the majority of staff is complacent and overpaid for the skillset they have (I know this will upset people, but I have worked in these environments and the people I worked with or worked for very not particularly smart or passionate about their work).

+1 and that is why I moved to where I am at now, I mailed you about it before I left. Couldn't be happier.

 

[Ninji]

So why are you writing code on a long weekend then?

None of our dev guys do any work outside of 9-5.

If they did they certainly wouldn't be allowed to bill for it so it just doesn't happen.

I am sitting here waiting for stuff to download, so I can muck around with golang.
I am a real developer, and I am passionate about code. I spent yesterday outdoors with the kid and family, and now while they siesta I can have a little bit of me-time doing stuff that makes me a better coder, and its fun.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Because I'm a Sys Admin, not developer

You were the one who said writing code.

But even our support and admin guys don't go past 9-5 unless they are on standby and something breaks.

 

[SauRoNZA]

I am sitting here waiting for stuff to download, so I can muck around with golang.
I am a real developer, and I am passionate about code. I spent yesterday outdoors with the kid and family, and now while they siesta I can have a little bit of me-time doing stuff that makes me a better coder, and its fun.

Besides the fact that I wasn't talking to you if it's a hobby and you are doing it for fun it's different.

The original person I responded to however was saying don't get into IT (even if jokingly so) because you'll end up giving your long weekends away to the corporate slave.

That is something very different.

I also like to tinker on the weekend, but no reason to complain about that as I'm volunteering for it.

 

[_kabal_]

Real Developer (TM)

 

[AlphaJohn]

Besides the fact that I wasn't talking to you if it's a hobby and you are doing it for fun it's different.

The original person I responded to however was saying don't get into IT (even if jokingly so) because you'll end up giving your long weekends away to the corporate slave.

That is something very different.

I also like to tinker on the weekend, but no reason to complain about that as I'm volunteering for it.

Before you go super anal about all of this. I was jokingly pointing to the fact, if you just wanna work 9-5 then IT may not be for you. Everyone that gets somewhere high in IT got there by putting in extra hours. From learning extra skills to doing actual work, some of it even unpaid.

Yes I wrote code. Yes I did it because I like it. No one made me do it, but at the end of the day the program I am working on will make my life easier and also help the company and maybe just maybe I can use it in my CV when I apply for the next position at another company.

If you have a problem with the way I said it or disagree with what I said, then say so and move on. No need to attack me in person or my skill sets or even other people that reflect their views. If you like to take it further I can do so in PM's. Lets not derail OP's thread any more than we already did.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Before you go super anal about all of this. I was jokingly pointing to the fact, if you just wanna work 9-5 then IT may not be for you. Everyone that gets somewhere high in IT got there by putting in extra hours. From learning extra skills to doing actual work, some of it even unpaid.

Yes I wrote code. Yes I did it because I like it. No one made me do it, but at the end of the day the program I am working on will make my life easier and also help the company and maybe just maybe I can use it in my CV when I apply for the next position at another company.

If you have a problem with the way I said it or disagree with what I said, then say so and move on. No need to attack me in person or my skill sets or even other people that reflect their views. If you like to take it further I can do so in PM's. Lets not derail OP's thread any more than we already did.

Relax your ass.

I wasn't attacking you and missed the "joke" in the original post.

I understood it was a joke after you pointed it out.

Voluntary work and self skilling is very different from the initial understanding I got from your post (missing the smiley and not seeing the joke in it, which quite honestly wasn't very well put).

However the same applies to any industry really. You don't get somewhere by being lazy.