Advice for junior IT positions

[Zoopy]

Glad they were straight forward with you.
Possibly you can go back to them and say that for the first 2 months you'll work for 75% of what they're currecntly offering and after that you'll accept 125%. There could be a way to make it work if you and they are both keen.

I thought about offering to work there for free for December to show them my potential, but I got the idea I would get in the way. He did tell me they're currently discussing an internship program so I should check back later in 2017, so I might still get in there. If worst comes to worst and I don't find anything soon, I'll ask him about working there for free for a short time. The worst he can do is say no.

This is what I do: We hire guys as interns (starting salary 8,5k) and as part of the year push you through certification (if you are Linux it is all the way to LPIC3 / Java it is to Advanced programmer / WCD).

If you show skill/potential we will most likely kill the internship halfway through and offer a junior salary range (anywhere from 10-17K). Afterwards the sky is the limit.

If you dislike our environment/the job you will at least finish the year with hands-on experience and a number of certifications on the CV.

And yes: recruiters are generally **** (rhymes with bass)-holes and will never represent your interests. If you struggle with interviews, get your profile up on LinkedIn asap - best way to land jobs nowadays...

Wow, R8.5k is really competitive. And yeah, I got my LinkedIn account up a few weeks ago. Their job finding service is very good. I applied to a suggested listing last night and the company forwarded me application forms this morning.

 

[MagicDude4Eva]

Weren't you guys pushing RH certs at one point? Have you dropped that in favour of LPIC or am I mistaken?

I don't know why, but for whatever reason we seem to struggle booking RH certification tests and it appears that LPIC is easier to book. We are using pretty much all of CentOS and anything OSS, and a Linux intern will be able to write the basic RH tests without much preparation. The certs are a nice thing to have on a CV but the real reason for writing them is that people benchmark themselves and get full score (I can't remember that we ever had a score less than 90%) and if things do not go well, work on the weak areas.

I thought about offering to work there for free for December to show them my potential, but I got the idea I would get in the way. He did tell me they're currently discussing an internship program so I should check back later in 2017, so I might still get in there. If worst comes to worst and I don't find anything soon, I'll ask him about working there for free for a short time. The worst he can do is say no.

Wow, R8.5k is really competitive. And yeah, I got my LinkedIn account up a few weeks ago. Their job finding service is very good. I applied to a suggested listing last night and the company forwarded me application forms this morning.

I have not read your initial post in it's entirety, but the above is really the message of the employer that he would not hire you and is IMO just a polite way of saying no. Remember one thing: Big corporates will have salary-bands and hiring requirements in place and would outright say yes or no. They would also offer internships if you qualify. The company you describe sounds informal / smallish (but wanting to be a big player) and lack the culture to be flexible.

I would not work for free (even for a short period of time) - although you are learning, you will still contribute to the company. Unfortunately most companies still apply that "We compensate you based on years with company / your age" and lack the flexibility to progress an intern to a junior or senior position. I can guarantee with certainty that 90% of companies would be unwilling to move an intern developer at 4-8K (that seems to be the going rate, some pay even less) to a junior or even senior level within a year with matching salary (in the range of 20-40K based on skill).

In the many interviews I conducted over the years I always look out for that one candidate who gained background about the business he is applying and actually asks how is career can progress. One candidate (a junior) was as candid to ask the question "What will it take for me to have your job and how can you help me getting there" - and any employer should be able to answer this without feeling intimidated.

Guys like Zoopy I would hire without any issue. We would have agreed mutually on KPIs/KPAs and proof-points during the probationary period (typically 3 months) and would work close enough to understand if things do not go well and make corrections. After the probationary period the employer and the employee should make the mutual decision if the work relationship should continue or not. The employee would at all times know if his/her performance is up to standard and there would never be surprises (I think of it the same way as dating someone to figure out compatibility before making that commitment). I hope this puts it into perspective why you should not work for free. You should ask that the company should offer you a xx-months probationary with defined targets and if you make them they will permanently hire you at a set salary (which could be set hire than what your compensation during the probationary period is).

 

[Zoopy]

I don't know, I get the feeling he's not the kind of guy to BS you and just outright say what he thinks. I spoke to some of the workers after the interview and one mentioned that she also heard discussions about an internship program, so it's probably true. I was introduced to the company by a friend of mine who got hired after doing a simple 3 month JavaScript course, so I don't think the requirements are that high. Probably literally just that I don't have any skills they can use at the moment.

I agree on the internship thing. I'm willing to work for a bit less during an internship, but after a year or two I'm going to want to be paid a proper salary so if I take an internship I would probably give them an ultimatum after a year or find a new job. The important part is just to build up that first year or two of experience that everyone expects.

 

[shadow_man]

I don't know why, but for whatever reason we seem to struggle booking RH certification tests and it appears that LPIC is easier to book. We are using pretty much all of CentOS and anything OSS, and a Linux intern will be able to write the basic RH tests without much preparation. The certs are a nice thing to have on a CV but the real reason for writing them is that people benchmark themselves and get full score (I can't remember that we ever had a score less than 90%) and if things do not go well, work on the weak areas.


I have not read your initial post in it's entirety, but the above is really the message of the employer that he would not hire you and is IMO just a polite way of saying no. Remember one thing: Big corporates will have salary-bands and hiring requirements in place and would outright say yes or no. They would also offer internships if you qualify. The company you describe sounds informal / smallish (but wanting to be a big player) and lack the culture to be flexible.

I would not work for free (even for a short period of time) - although you are learning, you will still contribute to the company. Unfortunately most companies still apply that "We compensate you based on years with company / your age" and lack the flexibility to progress an intern to a junior or senior position. I can guarantee with certainty that 90% of companies would be unwilling to move an intern developer at 4-8K (that seems to be the going rate, some pay even less) to a junior or even senior level within a year with matching salary (in the range of 20-40K based on skill).

In the many interviews I conducted over the years I always look out for that one candidate who gained background about the business he is applying and actually asks how is career can progress. One candidate (a junior) was as candid to ask the question "What will it take for me to have your job and how can you help me getting there" - and any employer should be able to answer this without feeling intimidated.

Guys like Zoopy I would hire without any issue. We would have agreed mutually on KPIs/KPAs and proof-points during the probationary period (typically 3 months) and would work close enough to understand if things do not go well and make corrections. After the probationary period the employer and the employee should make the mutual decision if the work relationship should continue or not. The employee would at all times know if his/her performance is up to standard and there would never be surprises (I think of it the same way as dating someone to figure out compatibility before making that commitment). I hope this puts it into perspective why you should not work for free. You should ask that the company should offer you a xx-months probationary with defined targets and if you make them they will permanently hire you at a set salary (which could be set hire than what your compensation during the probationary period is).

It's a pity you're not based in CPT. I've always thought by your posts that you'd make a good boss to work for. It sounds like you're very knowledgeable and have the integrity that most bosses seem to miss.

Keep it up, you're obviously doing something right

 

[MagicDude4Eva]

It's a pity you're not based in CPT. I've always thought by your posts that you'd make a good boss to work for. It sounds like you're very knowledgeable and have the integrity that most bosses seem to miss.

Keep it up, you're obviously doing something right

Who needs the mountain? Come to Jozi.

 

[Zoopy]

Indeed. It's refreshing to see a boss who cares for people in graduate/internship positions instead of just viewing it as a numbers game.

If I ever move to JHB, you'll be the first person to know.

 

[Spacerat]

Recruiters are loathesome. Just like estate agents. They work for themselves. Not for the candidate. They have no technical knowledge, so telling you that your game project is useless is way out of line. Screw them.

 

[Zoopy]

Bumpity. Just thought I'd follow up how my experience in eventually landing a position went.

Around about the week of the 11th of Dec (if I'm remembering correctly) I landed 3 interviews and got offers from all three.

The first was a last-minute interview scheduled a few hours in advance and the guy essentially made me an offer on the spot. He was nice enough and we got along well, but something about the whole thing made me a little uncomfortable. He was operating out of a granny flat with the promise of moving to Century City, but when pressed on the matter couldn't give me a conclusive answer on the CC thing. The best he could do was say 99% certainty. I wanted to negotiate the contract when he sent it that Wednesday, but he didn't respond to the email. I declined his offer shortly after getting another offer and he only read the email at 9:30 on the day he wanted me to start. Granted, there was a long-weekend in-between but it made me really uncomfortable. Under normal circumstances I would have called him, but I wanted to see if he'd check his emails at all over the weekend. I might have been happy there, but I don't think the company was really going places (operating from a granny flat after 10 years of running?) and the starting salary was low with little prospect for advancement, so it would probably have been a bad career move for me.

The second interview I had was with a game dev company. They make commissioned mobile games and VR simulators. It was very interesting. They essentially let me play around with some of the tech, then we had a short interview and then a short coding test. The coding test was easy enough, just testing a string for being a palindrome. I got an offer that evening and had a really hard time making a decision on it. The pay was eh, the hours extremely long and the possibility of doing further part-time studies almost non-existent. I'm thinking of pursuing Honors in 2018 or 2019, so the latter was rather important to me. In the end I declined it when I got my third offer.

The third interview was for a developer internship at a major international company, taking place two hours after my game dev interview. Very corporate, even the head of HR sat in on the meeting. They had me do a 48 hour web app exercise in Visual Studio the week before and this interview followed that. They grilled me really hard and I left thinking there was no way in hell I would get the position. Imagine my surprise when I woke up two mornings later with an offer in my inbox. I've been in a state of bliss ever since. It was possibly the only time in my life that I wished the holidays would end so that I could start working. I start on the 9th and I am so incredibly excited about it.

I've learned a fair bit out of the whole experience. The best advice I can give other recent graduates: be proactive. I did not stop working even for a day after finishing my exams. I was constantly upskilling, either by revising past course content or learning new IDEs/software environments, doing online coding courses, etc. And for the love of all things holy, don't wait until after December to start looking. Two of the interviewers told me that they get very few applications over November/December, and then suddenly in January they get hordes as graduates who decided to take one last holiday start looking for work. One recruiter told me that I would probably be able to pick and choose between offers, which is precisely what happened.

 

[TedLasso]

Bumpity. Just thought I'd follow up how my experience in eventually landing a position went.

Around about the week of the 11th of Dec (if I'm remembering correctly) I landed 3 interviews and got offers from all three.

The first was a last-minute interview scheduled a few hours in advance and the guy essentially made me an offer on the spot. He was nice enough and we got along well, but something about the whole thing made me a little uncomfortable. He was operating out of a granny flat with the promise of moving to Century City, but when pressed on the matter couldn't give me a conclusive answer on the CC thing. The best he could do was say 99% certainty. I wanted to negotiate the contract when he sent it that Wednesday, but he didn't respond to the email. I declined his offer shortly after getting another offer and he only read the email at 9:30 on the day he wanted me to start. Granted, there was a long-weekend in-between but it made me really uncomfortable. Under normal circumstances I would have called him, but I wanted to see if he'd check his emails at all over the weekend. I might have been happy there, but I don't think the company was really going places (operating from a granny flat after 10 years of running?) and the starting salary was low with little prospect for advancement, so it would probably have been a bad career move for me.

The second interview I had was with a game dev company. They make commissioned mobile games and VR simulators. It was very interesting. They essentially let me play around with some of the tech, then we had a short interview and then a short coding test. The coding test was easy enough, just testing a string for being a palindrome. I got an offer that evening and had a really hard time making a decision on it. The pay was eh, the hours extremely long and the possibility of doing further part-time studies almost non-existent. I'm thinking of pursuing Honors in 2018 or 2019, so the latter was rather important to me. In the end I declined it when I got my third offer.

The third interview was for a developer internship at a major international company, taking place two hours after my game dev interview. Very corporate, even the head of HR sat in on the meeting. They had me do a 48 hour web app exercise in Visual Studio the week before and this interview followed that. They grilled me really hard and I left thinking there was no way in hell I would get the position. Imagine my surprise when I woke up two mornings later with an offer in my inbox. I've been in a state of bliss ever since. It was possibly the only time in my life that I wished the holidays would end so that I could start working. I start on the 9th and I am so incredibly excited about it.

I've learned a fair bit out of the whole experience. The best advice I can give other recent graduates: be proactive. I did not stop working even for a day after finishing my exams. I was constantly upskilling, either by revising past course content or learning new IDEs/software environments, doing online coding courses, etc. And for the love of all things holy, don't wait until after December to start looking. Two of the interviewers told me that they get very few applications over November/December, and then suddenly in January they get hordes as graduates who decided to take one last holiday start looking for work. One recruiter told me that I would probably be able to pick and choose between offers, which is precisely what happened.

Great to hear and good advice for anyone !

 

[mister]

Congrats man!

 

[animal531]

Good for you, I hope it's a cool place!

Recruiters are unfortunately all about pushing for and meeting their own targets, it's a cut-throat business. They'll often try to sell you out for less if it means that they can get you out the door faster.

 

[donvilla07]

Bumpity. Just thought I'd follow up how my experience in eventually landing a position went.

Around about the week of the 11th of Dec (if I'm remembering correctly) I landed 3 interviews and got offers from all three.

The first was a last-minute interview scheduled a few hours in advance and the guy essentially made me an offer on the spot. He was nice enough and we got along well, but something about the whole thing made me a little uncomfortable. He was operating out of a granny flat with the promise of moving to Century City, but when pressed on the matter couldn't give me a conclusive answer on the CC thing. The best he could do was say 99% certainty. I wanted to negotiate the contract when he sent it that Wednesday, but he didn't respond to the email. I declined his offer shortly after getting another offer and he only read the email at 9:30 on the day he wanted me to start. Granted, there was a long-weekend in-between but it made me really uncomfortable. Under normal circumstances I would have called him, but I wanted to see if he'd check his emails at all over the weekend. I might have been happy there, but I don't think the company was really going places (operating from a granny flat after 10 years of running?) and the starting salary was low with little prospect for advancement, so it would probably have been a bad career move for me.

The second interview I had was with a game dev company. They make commissioned mobile games and VR simulators. It was very interesting. They essentially let me play around with some of the tech, then we had a short interview and then a short coding test. The coding test was easy enough, just testing a string for being a palindrome. I got an offer that evening and had a really hard time making a decision on it. The pay was eh, the hours extremely long and the possibility of doing further part-time studies almost non-existent. I'm thinking of pursuing Honors in 2018 or 2019, so the latter was rather important to me. In the end I declined it when I got my third offer.

The third interview was for a developer internship at a major international company, taking place two hours after my game dev interview. Very corporate, even the head of HR sat in on the meeting. They had me do a 48 hour web app exercise in Visual Studio the week before and this interview followed that. They grilled me really hard and I left thinking there was no way in hell I would get the position. Imagine my surprise when I woke up two mornings later with an offer in my inbox. I've been in a state of bliss ever since. It was possibly the only time in my life that I wished the holidays would end so that I could start working. I start on the 9th and I am so incredibly excited about it.

I've learned a fair bit out of the whole experience. The best advice I can give other recent graduates: be proactive. I did not stop working even for a day after finishing my exams. I was constantly upskilling, either by revising past course content or learning new IDEs/software environments, doing online coding courses, etc. And for the love of all things holy, don't wait until after December to start looking. Two of the interviewers told me that they get very few applications over November/December, and then suddenly in January they get hordes as graduates who decided to take one last holiday start looking for work. One recruiter told me that I would probably be able to pick and choose between offers, which is precisely what happened.

Hey man, just came across this thread and found it extremely fascinating. Congrats on the job, I hope things are going well for you.

 

[Zoopy]

So a big bump.

About 3 1/2 months into the position I chose, I finally decided to draw a line and quit. For the first few weeks I enjoyed it and was sure I would be able to build a career there, but slowly cracks started showing and I couldn't shake the feeling that something was just plain rotten. The amazing tech stack that I was promised by the recruiter was anything but, and the world-class dev team I kept hearing about certainly never lived up to my expectations. They work in a very niche, very outdated, language and the product is incredibly complex and for this reason I believe that each and every one of their developers become irreplaceable soon after they become proficient in the language and understand the product. The worst attitude came from some of the seniors, some of whom I can safely say genuinely mistreat their colleagues and get away with it because they simply cannot be replaced at this point. Among the younger guys there was also a very noticeable clique, which I guess happens in most offices, but this one definitely ruled the roost and cause a very unpleasant atmosphere- I suspect, again, because the company cannot afford to lose developers and they know it. Their development methodologies are also incredibly outdated, but I won't go into too much detail on that one because they were in the process of revamping them. And I'm hardly the first intern to call it quits either. Of their previous group of 4, only 1 stayed on in the end. This should have fired up warning lights the first time I heard it.

From month 2 onward I steadily grew more unhappy by the week. Shortly after the end of my third month it was time for quarterly reviews. There was a bit of a fallout as they found out that me and my partner were exploring emigration possibilities and I was told that it's probably not worth continuing my contract unless I could commit to stay until Jan 2018. Further discussions was dragged out by more than a week. Last week Friday I saw that one of the recently hired senior devs, who I had noticed seemed incredibly miserable during his 2 months there, had resigned. I spent some time being conflicted about it, but ultimately decided that it was time to cut loose and place more value on my happiness. I handed in my resignation the same day. It turned out that HR is very aware of the culture issues in the office and is trying to get a handle on it. To add insult to injury, they were cheeky enough to ask me on Monday whether they couldn't change my mind so that I would stay on- this after I had been told that they would ax me at a moment's notice if they didn't see themselves getting a return on their investment the week before. Considering I was the 4th dev to leave in 2 months and their parent company wants to almost double the size of the dev team, I completely understand why they did the sudden 180.

I know, I know. Long story is very long and probably contains a lot more intimate details than it should, but I want to help out future graduates in my position. When you're looking for work, do your research properly. If you have the time (and let's face it, many of us do after graduation), ask to spend a few days in the office with the company you're looking at. Sit and watch the way people work together, how they go about their work, the methodologies they employ, take note of how they treat each other, etc. I stared myself blind against a paragraph of promises and the biggest salary of the bunch of offers I got. Also don't forget, you're young. Don't be afraid of leaving a situation you're not happy in if you have a solid support structure. I spoke to my partner and family, both of whom said that even in the worst case scenario they won't let me end up on the streets. Don't undervalue your happiness. A job is more than just money.

As for me, I guess now the next big adventure starts. I'm already starting at a new place on Tuesday and this time my happiness comes first.

 

[semaphore]

Its not uncommon, I've also been in situations like that were the position was sold to me. They even invited me over and allowed me to take a look around and speak to the other dev's, little did i know that they were all buddy buddy and kept up appearances. I joined the company, within my first two weeks i was dreading it, i resigned 4 months later.

 

[Oppiekoffie]

So a big bump.

....

You can never win them all. Also walked into a not so nice place but will stay on and see if things improve. I think one has to spot over eagerness from a recruiter when it comes to certain positions. When they can't find anyone else for that job you must smell a rat and stay away or noone else wants to work there. I dreaded my current job since the first 4 weeks.

@semaphore - name and shame. Thats a nasty one. Pretending that the place is great and then that.

Not great to see you guys getting the short straw. Many have though.
Is there really a skills shortage or do no one wants to work for these places?

 

[Spacerat]

So a big bump.

The amazing tech stack that I was promised by the recruiter was anything but, and the world-class dev team I kept hearing about certainly never lived up to my expectations.

why the F do you believe anything that a recruiter says...

 

[rward]

Also don't forget, you're young. Don't be afraid of leaving a situation you're not happy in if you have a solid support structure. I spoke to my partner and family, both of whom said that even in the worst case scenario they won't let me end up on the streets. Don't undervalue your happiness. A job is more than just money.

As for me, I guess now the next big adventure starts. I'm already starting at a new place on Tuesday and this time my happiness comes first.

AWESOME!

This is a lesson that I'm glad you have learnt and have taken the time to put down in writing for othes to read

 

[Baxteen]

So. After uni I started working at a company that uses a very outdated system. I stayed there for 4 years because my best friend was my manager so I never had any issues. The culture in the office was also nice and worked for me.

I left there to find more money. Walked into a small dev shop that was effectively run by the main client. Not the best place to be. People should add that to the warning sign list. If they tell you we have many clients but you will be working mostly with one, that is a warning sign most of the time.

I left there as the client was threatening my salary due to his own ignorance.

Next place seemed really good.
Until a client meeting was interupted by the owner of the shop to talk to the project manager about crossfit. That happened three more times. Last time it was the last staw. I quit after the meeting and walked out that day, no other job lined up.

I started my next job a week later and have never been happier.

Remember, there are thousands of developers, and thousands of jobs out there for us. Don't let money be the driving force. A company culture that works with your personality is worth more than that extra 5% CTC. And every half hour travel time is effectively worth 3%ctc. Working 15 min away from home for 3% less than the place 45min away is 100% worth it

 

[biometrics]

They work in a very niche, very outdated, language

Companies don't just replace many years of code because of the latest languages trends, that would be suicide.

Which language is it? I'll take a wild guess and say VB6?

 

[Zoopy]

Companies don't just replace many years of code because of the latest languages trends, that would be suicide.

Which language is it? I'll take a wild guess and say VB6?

Close, VB.Net. So it's not that different from C#, but it's not a desirable language for your CV and it isn't what was promised up front. The other guys who started with me were equally surprised when they found out we'll be coding in that instead of C#. I've actually been told outright in two interviews that VB.Net counts against me.