Advice for junior IT positions

[Zoopy]

Hey everyone. I'm about to graduate with a BSc in Informatics (compsci and business management). I've applied to a whole horde of companies, ranging from customer service host to junior DBA to QA testing, etc. All junior positions. I've compiled a CV and a small portfolio showing some code from a recent project as well as old academic projects and sent it out all over the place.

I've now got 3 interviews lined up this week and would like some advice from people in the industry. Two are just general interviews where they want to meet me, then we'll discuss what I'm good at etc. The other is for the position of a junior DBA. I just want some advice as someone going into the field of IT with very limited experience and no idea what to expect.

Most of the jobs I've applied for have averaged around R12-R13k starting salaries. I'm hoping for about R12k to pay rent, cover living costs, cover petrol and start repaying student debt. I've been told this is a little ambitious and I should aim more towards R10k? I'd like some advice on this one. More is obviously better but I'd also like to be realistic.

As for the rest, what kind of questions can I expect, what should I be looking out for? Also, how does the recruitment process work? What happens if someone tells me I can the job but a week later I get an offer from a place I'd rather work at? Should I be looking for companies offering probation periods so I can leave if I'm not happy or anything like that?

It's a jungle and I feel really ill-prepared for what's coming my way. Would appreciate some advice from the senior IT people.

 

[gkm]

You need to give us a bit more info:
- Where are you based (city)?
- At which institution did you do your BSc?
- What are you main subjects? I ask because you say compsci, but do not mention applying for developer positions.

 

[Zoopy]

I'm based around CT and did my BSc at UNISA.

Main subjects are hard to explain, but mostly programming, in this case Delphi, C++ and some QT. It also covered plenty of database design and implementation modules, as well as a basic SQL module. For the rest it's basically networks, hardware, systems analysis and design, human-computer interaction and software project management. No math modules unfortunately.

It's hard to pin down precisely what it covers but the focus is roughly databases (theoretical mostly), programming and the management of software development projects. Strong focus on the SDLC, agile methods etc.

 

[DA-LION-619]

snip

Did you do any comp sci modules?

 

[TehStranger]

Hey everyone. I'm about to graduate with a BSc in Informatics (compsci and business management). I've applied to a whole horde of companies, ranging from customer service host to junior DBA to QA testing, etc. All junior positions. I've compiled a CV and a small portfolio showing some code from a recent project as well as old academic projects and sent it out all over the place.

Start with some direction. What jobs do you enjoy? Rather than a shotgun approach maybe narrow down things to what you think you'll enjoy? From interfacing with our building developers I can tell you Testers and DBAs are very different people, and they'd hate each other's jobs.

Also whatever happened to that thread about IT positions in Cape Town that were offering R25,000 right out of uni with R100,000 signing bonuses? Oh right here it is, Java devs.

 

[Oppiekoffie]

Start with some direction. What jobs do you enjoy? Rather than a shotgun approach maybe narrow down things to what you think you'll enjoy? From interfacing with our building developers I can tell you Testers and DBAs are very different people, and they'd hate each other's jobs.

Also whatever happened to that thread about IT positions in Cape Town that were offering R25,000 right out of uni with R100,000 signing bonuses? Oh right here it is, Java devs.

I'm confused, how is someone a Java dev straight out of uni?

 

[Zoopy]

Did you do any comp sci modules?

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by CompSci modules? Do you mean the in-depth study of computer architecture? The nitty-gritty of CompSci like drawing up Gantt charts, Boolean Algebra and the like? I had a few modules of that nature but I think most of them were first or second year.

Start with some direction. What jobs do you enjoy? Rather than a shotgun approach maybe narrow down things to what you think you'll enjoy? From interfacing with our building developers I can tell you Testers and DBAs are very different people, and they'd hate each other's jobs. Also whatever happened to that thread about IT positions in Cape Town that were offering R25,000 right out of uni with R100,000 signing bonuses? Oh right here it is, Java devs.

Yeah you've got a point. Right now I'm in a bad place because I'm underqualified compared to other 25-yos. I can't be too picky with which jobs I take. Getting a year or two of full-time work experience behind me is quite important at the moment. With QA testing I'd get Agile training, which would be very useful to have. A recruiter I spoke to said it's a more lucrative option if I want to work my way up the ranks and maybe manage an agile team in a few years. DBA seems more in line with my interests, but I worry that I might be biting off more than I can chew there. My degree gave me a very solid theoretical foundation for the design and implementation of relational databases, but it sort of glossed over the management aspect. Especially on the SQL side where we only had one module covering the bare basics. I don't have an issue learning all that and I'd be happy to work extra hours and dedicate time over weekends to get up to speed on everything I'll need, but I don't know if a company would be willing to hire me when there are likely plenty of other candidates who already have DB management experience.

Software dev is something I don't want to rule out entirely, but a career path I'd prefer not to take if I don't have to. I enjoy coding in my free time and frequently work on hobby projects, but I'm not good with coding under deadlines and at the pace required in the work environment. It's something I do for enjoyment in my spare time, but can't imagine I'd get a lot of job satisfaction out of it.

Thanks for linking to that thread, btw. I'll browse through it now.

 

[DA-LION-619]

I'm confused, how is someone a Java dev straight out of uni?

You do some Java modules, if you enjoy it. You do some personal projects, maybe play around on Github.

 

[cguy]

As a matter of interest, do you have any idea how you rank in your graduation year? (which percentile?). This is often the best indication of how much you are likely earn after you graduate.

Also, why QA and DBA vs. a dev position?

Edit: posted this before updating the page. I see that you don't think you'd want to to code to a deadline. I would go with DBA over QA any day though.

 

[Oppiekoffie]

You do some Java modules, if you enjoy it. You do some personal projects, maybe play around on Github.

Surely someone degreed / and even honours as they talked on the other thread(I won't even waste my time in SA with those) should get up to speed very quickly. surely there's lots of potential in someone degreed/honours? And one cannot think of stuff to prepare you for corporate development. Just my 2c

 

[Zoopy]

Also, salary negotiations, what's the rule on that? Even for someone with my lack of experience R10k feels very low, especially if I have to commute far distances. I can do 10k if it's close to Century City or the city center because then I won't need a car. The interview on Thursday is a place in Tygervalley which means I'd have to commute from Century City to there every day. In this case I'd have to pay R1k a month for a parking bay at my flat and then my petrol costs add on top of that. Estimated roughly, having a car would run between R2k-R3k extra a month, effectively bringing my salary down to under R8000.

Should I bring this up during salary negotiations? How much leeway for negotiation can I expect if I do bring it up?

 

[Zoopy]

As a matter of interest, do you have any idea how you rank in your graduation year? (which percentile?). This is often the best indication of how much you are likely earn after you graduate.

Not super great and not bad either. I've maintained an average of 72%, which I've been trying to raise to 75% this semester so that I can graduate Cum Laude. My marks are module-dependent though. Some modules I scrape by with 60, others I get high 80s and 90s.

 

[TehStranger]

Yeah you've got a point. Right now I'm in a bad place because I'm underqualified compared to other 25-yos. I can't be too picky with which jobs I take. Getting a year or two of full-time work experience behind me is quite important at the moment. With QA testing I'd get Agile training, which would be very useful to have. A recruiter I spoke to said it's a more lucrative option if I want to work my way up the ranks and maybe manage an agile team in a few years. DBA seems more in line with my interests, but I worry that I might be biting off more than I can chew there. My degree gave me a very solid theoretical foundation for the design and implementation of relational databases, but it sort of glossed over the management aspect. Especially on the SQL side where we only had one module covering the bare basics. I don't have an issue learning all that and I'd be happy to work extra hours and dedicate time over weekends to get up to speed on everything I'll need, but I don't know if a company would be willing to hire me when there are likely plenty of other candidates who already have DB management experience.

Software dev is something I don't want to rule out entirely, but a career path I'd prefer not to take if I don't have to. I enjoy coding in my free time and frequently work on hobby projects, but I'm not good with coding under deadlines and at the pace required in the work environment. It's something I do for enjoyment in my spare time, but can't imagine I'd get a lot of job satisfaction out of it.

Thanks for linking to that thread, btw. I'll browse through it now.

Go where your passion is, it'll help you learn a lot in a short amount of time, especially if you're willing to put in the graft. Oh, and Tthe best way to grow is by biting off more than you can chew, and then forcing it down (so to speak).

Important thing to note, don't forget about paying tax, that turns R12,000 per month into R10,965 quickly (which counts a lot at that salary level), not to mention any other deductions.

Go in with a realistic idea of what you're worth. If you want R13,000, say so. The difference between R10,000 and R13,000 isn't that much in the grand scheme of things, and they worst they can do is negotiate you down (if they want you, if they don't want you they won't even bother putting out an offer). Get advice from the recruiter on what the position pays and what you should ask for. It's usually in their best interest to get you the best possible salary, as their payout is often directly linked to how much you get.

As others have mentioned, don't focus too much on how much you can get, but rather how the company can grow you in other ways. The practical knowledge and work experience you'll gain are worth far more than an extra R2,000 at the end of each month. The working world will highlight just how little you know about your chosen field, but that's where the excitement happens.

One last thing (and this is aimed more at trackig personal growth), write down a personal development mission statement now before you enter the job market. Use this to steer your career growth over the next two years, and reflect back on it when you know a lot more than you know now. It's the one thing I didn't do when I start working that I wish I had done.

 

[jman]

I studied BCom Informatics, and have since gone into business analysis at a software company. Salary wise, don't be too concerned about it in the beginning. However, once you start looking for another job, most companies will offer you 15% above your current. So if you aren't being paid well for some reason, this could be detrimental in future, and hamper your progress. So make sure to ask what you think you're worth.

 

[Zoopy]

Bump. So I'm a couple of weeks into the job hunt and I thought I'd give some feedback.

The tl;dr summary: I learned to hate recruiters, learned not to overestimate my value and realised that I know nothing, Jon Sno'

So I've seen a couple of recruiters now and the general idea I get from them is that they don't give a fark about their candidates. This ranges from recruiters never getting back to you on potential job opportunities that you interviewed for, telling you they don't like working with graduates or telling you they're not willing to take a chance on you. I was at an interview with a recruiter two weeks ago and the bloke really liked my CV, but told me "he won't forget about me but opportunities for people like me come around rarely and he needs to feel comfortable recommending me to his clients", in other words "sorry, I'm not going to find you a job". He also told me that the videogame project I've been working on for the past two months is worthless and should be ditched. This is after my SO who has worked in software dev for 10 years now was impressed by it and said it's teaching my tons of invaluable skills such as proper encapsulation, code reusability and how to refactor code (which is something I've never done before starting this project). Improving my coding abilities and knowledge is precisely why I tackled this project, so I got the feeling the recruiter didn't really know the industry he's recruiting for.

Another recruiter for one of the biggest corporations in SA was late, didn't have a job spec, didn't even know what the job entailed herself and then asked me questions about the position to which she googled the answers during the interview.

I also interviewed for a DBA position and the recruiter said the company was firm on their offer of 10k. I felt this was low and asked her to push it to R10.5k or R11k. She told me she thought I was a good candidate and she would forward my application. I never heard back from the company so I'm assuming they didn't like that I asked for more money. It might be a blessing in disguise, because I don't think I want to work for a multi-million rand corporation that is too stingy to pay R1k more for a good candidate.

Amazon accepted my application for graduate Cloud Support Host and I did their online assessments yesterday. Some of them were very tough. I opted for databases, networking and deployment assessments. I breezed through databases (I hope ), had a bit of a tough time with networks but I believe I should do okay and completely tanked deployment. I've been told competition is stiff and they've got a long list graduates who applied, so I'm hopeful but not putting any money on getting the position.

Finally, I went to an interview on Friday with a very quirky development company and I hit it off really well with the interviewer. He says he believes I'm a smart guy and given time I could learn, but right now I don't have the skills they need (JavaScript) and that I would be thrown in the deep end and struggle if I started at his company right now. He said he could pay me a salary and see how it goes, but it wouldn't be fair towards him to have to pay me to learn while I'm not contributing value to their company. I agreed with him and I really appreciated his frankness and honesty. It was refreshing in light of all the BSing I've had to endure from other recruiters and companies. I liked his company and their product so I'll definitely have a second look in a year or two once I've grown my skills.

And that's it for now, I think. I've learned a lot in the last few weeks, the most important of which is that I know absolutely nothing. I'm going to spend the next couple of months until I find a job improving my skills and diversifying my knowledge, starting with learning specific database software packages, improving my SQL, learning new languages such as HTML, CSS, JavaScript and PHP etc etc and then get back to working on my personal website. I'm also going to write a CRM system for my father's company so that I have business software to add to my portfolio. My last exam is tomorrow so after that I am technically unemployed and will have all the time in the world.

Sorry for the long write-up, just thought I'd share what the job hunt is like for a new graduate in 2016. In short, it's been hell.

 

[rward]

He also told me that the videogame project I've been working on for the past two months is worthless and should be ditched.

**** (rhymes with duck) him.

Finally, I went to an interview on Friday with a very quirky development company and I hit it off really well with the interviewer. He says he believes I'm a smart guy and given time I could learn, but right now I don't have the skills they need (JavaScript) and that I would be thrown in the deep end and struggle if I started at his company right now. He said he could pay me a salary and see how it goes, but it wouldn't be fair towards him to have to pay me to learn while I'm not contributing value to their company. I agreed with him and I really appreciated his frankness and honesty. It was refreshing in light of all the BSing I've had to endure from other recruiters and companies. I liked his company and their product so I'll definitely have a second look in a year or two once I've grown my skills.

Glad they were straight forward with you.
Possibly you can go back to them and say that for the first 2 months you'll work for 75% of what they're currecntly offering and after that you'll accept 125%. There could be a way to make it work if you and they are both keen.

 

[theratman]

Popped you a pm.

 

[MagicDude4Eva]

This is what I do: We hire guys as interns (starting salary 8,5k) and as part of the year push you through certification (if you are Linux it is all the way to LPIC3 / Java it is to Advanced programmer / WCD).

If you show skill/potential we will most likely kill the internship halfway through and offer a junior salary range (anywhere from 10-17K). Afterwards the sky is the limit.

If you dislike our environment/the job you will at least finish the year with hands-on experience and a number of certifications on the CV.

And yes: recruiters are generally **** (rhymes with bass)-holes and will never represent your interests. If you struggle with interviews, get your profile up on LinkedIn asap - best way to land jobs nowadays...

 

[Thor]

This is what I do: We hire guys as interns (starting salary 8,5k) and as part of the year push you through certification (if you are Linux it is all the way to LPIC3 / Java it is to Advanced programmer / WCD).

If you show skill/potential we will most likely kill the internship halfway through and offer a junior salary range (anywhere from 10-17K). Afterwards the sky is the limit.

If you dislike our environment/the job you will at least finish the year with hands-on experience and a number of certifications on the CV.

And yes: recruiters are generally **** (rhymes with bass)-holes and will never represent your interests. If you struggle with interviews, get your profile up on LinkedIn asap - best way to land jobs nowadays...

That is actually brilliant - since you give back valuable experience and paper to back it up.

 

[shadow_man]

This is what I do: We hire guys as interns (starting salary 8,5k) and as part of the year push you through certification (if you are Linux it is all the way to LPIC3 / Java it is to Advanced programmer / WCD).

If you show skill/potential we will most likely kill the internship halfway through and offer a junior salary range (anywhere from 10-17K). Afterwards the sky is the limit.

If you dislike our environment/the job you will at least finish the year with hands-on experience and a number of certifications on the CV.

And yes: recruiters are generally **** (rhymes with bass)-holes and will never represent your interests. If you struggle with interviews, get your profile up on LinkedIn asap - best way to land jobs nowadays...

Weren't you guys pushing RH certs at one point? Have you dropped that in favour of LPIC or am I mistaken?