Affirmative Action - The Distance

If black people's land were not "stolen" (sometimes it was traded for) from them there wouldn't have been so many white farms producing so much food for the masses to reproduce and there wouldn't have been an overwhelming majority to wrestle control of the country.

Returning every black man in this country to the wealth he would have had, if we never came to this country is easy. There was nothing here of any value before we came here. Justify the racist economic policies now?
 
There was nothing here of any value before we
came here. Justify the racist economic policies now?

IMO that's a bit harsh. Value is a subjective thing. What we may not consider valuable others may. But yes, I agree with the gist of your statement.

Also one must remember that it is also western medicine that has allowed the black population to grow.
 
Population growth isn't the problem. Its a natural thing to have big families when you are poor. On one hand when we think about poor woman who have 2/3 kids on the side of the road we think "Why?" but on the other hand if you are poor and likely to be unable to work and you get sick often (Which happens if you don't have access to healthcare or you have AIDS) you will need family to take care of you, hence the big families.
 
Well, it was the problem. Particularly when the govt seems to think that life was so rosy before the arrival of the white man (which it certainly was not).

However, had the white govts been more inclusive of the blacks 90 years ago the blacks would have become wealthier and the population growth rate would have levelled off.
 
NAH, not their heads in their asses...they very clever keeping us occupied so we dont notice their masters' to turn us into slaves...it's already happened to a certain degree...from what I can gather we might even eventually look at a tax on the air that we breathe. But this is how I interpereted things that I read...pls do ur own research and make ur own conclusions...

We need more politicians like Ron Paul from Texas in US. Bring on the cloning technology so we can clone him!
 
If black people's land were not "stolen" (sometimes it was traded for) from them there wouldn't have been so many white farms producing so much food for the masses to reproduce and there wouldn't have been an overwhelming majority to wrestle control of the country.

Returning every black man in this country to the wealth he would have had, if we never came to this country is easy. There was nothing here of any value before we came here. Justify the racist economic policies now?

I can't believe this thread is still going :p

..but yes Affirmative Action time-line starts at Apartheid - how convenient :rolleyes: when the real time-line started through the economy being brought to this country which would not be what it is if not for those settlers and we all know who ultimately benefited from that ? :)

Attempting to rapidly bootstrap an economy through AA has failed due to little or no benefit of actual empowerment taking place.
 
Attempting to rapidly bootstrap an economy through AA has failed due to little or no benefit of actual empowerment taking place.

No it failed because there are not enough black skills to replace the white skills that were displaced. No matter, Jimmy Manyi will provide such skills and save the day.
 
Just for the interest sake. (I am not South African). Before the Europeans 'invaded' Southern Africa, did the 'locals' use money/coins? Did the locals know what 'money' is? What did this 'money' look like. If the answer is 'NO', that says a lot too. (BTW - In Europe one still can get coins from Roman times.)
 
Just for the interest sake. (I am not South African). Before the Europeans 'invaded' Southern Africa, did the 'locals' use money/coins? Did the locals know what 'money' is? What did this 'money' look like. If the answer is 'NO', that says a lot too. (BTW - In Europe one still can get coins from Roman times.)

There was some use of Arabian coin, but trade was primarily in goods - gold, ivory, copper, and suchlike.
 
Just for the interest sake. (I am not South African). Before the Europeans 'invaded' Southern Africa, did the 'locals' use money/coins? Did the locals know what 'money' is? What did this 'money' look like. If the answer is 'NO', that says a lot too. (BTW - In Europe one still can get coins from Roman times.)

How about the wheel? Oh the Irony.
 
Just for the interest sake. (I am not South African). Before the Europeans 'invaded' Southern Africa, did the 'locals' use money/coins? Did the locals know what 'money' is? What did this 'money' look like. If the answer is 'NO', that says a lot too. (BTW - In Europe one still can get coins from Roman times.)

Once you figured out the definition of money you'll be enlightend.
Once you figured out who invented the coin,you as an european can thank them too.
 
Just for the interest sake. (I am not South African). Before the Europeans 'invaded' Southern Africa, did the 'locals' use money/coins? Did the locals know what 'money' is? What did this 'money' look like. If the answer is 'NO', that says a lot too. (BTW - In Europe one still can get coins from Roman times.)

What are you trying to get at? There was if history serves a barter economy. Most civilisations have the same basic root.

Doesn't make it right to exploit them just because they were'nt as civilised at the time. Upliftment happens, look at Briton :D Bunch of animal skin wearing celts until romans educated them :p
 
Dude where hell do you get your info. "Unregulated greed caused the meltdown"

I'm sorry but huh? Try some research dude. The banks didn't magically decide one day to reduce the interest rate. They didn't decide out of the blue to change to credit policies.

The Fed as in Federal Reserve (US Government central bank) decided to lower interest rates. The fed is a government protected bank by law. How is that "free" if they have a monopoly on brand new debt expansion enforced by the government. Its the opposite of a "unregulated" market.

The government instituted policies to encourage banks to lower their credit controls so that people who couldn't afford houses could magically afford them?

If you are saying it was the free market that caused the crisis, then you are saying that banks VOLUNTARILY (without any coercion) lowered their interest rates to almost 0% (NO profit) and VOLUNTARILY lowered credit controls to lend money to lots of people who had no jobs and were unlikely to pay it back.... all in the name of PROFIT?

What profit. Any half-wit could tell that wasn't profitable. If you say banks are greedier than they would act "greedily" and not give a damn about the poor and not lent out any money. But they did.

Nah I'm sick and tired of people blaming free-market or capitalism when it was the regulations and government intereferance that causes problems.

Profit is the be all and end all as it is a by product of all other motives.

If you as a company advertise that you are environmentally friendly. You are doing so in the hope more people buy your stuff and thus more money. You build a gym for your employees at work. You are hoping that this will lead and healthier and happier employees. This leads to an increase in productivity and thus more profits.

Even so called non-profits cannot operate at a loss indefinately.

Profits are an indication of how well companies are meeting consumer needs. (In a free market.)
If you make a loss you are using too many resources to add less value to society.

If you are profitable the products you make our more valued than the resources consumed.

www.mises.org

Educate yourselves.

Right back at you

It was the lack of regulations that allowed banks to wrap those "junk" bonds into unidentifiable products whose worth had no relation to the assets backing it.

Those poisonous assets spread all over the world because the financial systems rewards drove people to wrap these assets in more and more obtuse products in order to extract paper profits.

There is a place for regulation in supposedly "free" markets. Just ask the guys who fixed the bread prices in SA...
 
Just for the interest sake. (I am not South African). Before the Europeans 'invaded' Southern Africa, did the 'locals' use money/coins? Did the locals know what 'money' is? What did this 'money' look like. If the answer is 'NO', that says a lot too. (BTW - In Europe one still can get coins from Roman times.)

you are so insulting! that is not right! :mad:

how you are expecting a [-]non-civilize[/-] comparatively less advance culture to answer the question like this? :D

The first metal coins are regarded by some as having been invented in China. The earliest known Chinese metal tokens were made ca. 900 BC, discovered in a tomb near Anyang. These were replicas in bronze of earlier Chinese money, cowrie shells, so they were named Bronze Shell.[5][6][7] Most numismatists, however, regard these as well as later Chinese bronzes that were replicas of knives, spades, and hoes as money but not as coins because they didn't at least initially carry a mark or marks certifying them to be of a definite exchange value.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin#First_coins

compare to china, africa's civilization is more than three thousand years behind. How dare you ask this question! insulting! Racism! Discrimination! apartheid! :eek:

:D :D :D
 
The reason we have so called "institutions" to promote the "free" market (A.K.A The Washington Consensus) is that we don't really have a free market.

If a couple of companies want to form a cartel and raise prices. It means they get more profits. More profits in a free market is an indicator that more resources need to go to that sector of the economy, I.E. more competition in bread making.

Thus the fact that they want to increase prices to get profits means they are opening themselves up to competition. If we left the market and imposed no fines, you would eventually likely see new players in the market providing everlasting competition and driving prices down. Problem solved.

Instead we have laws and regulations that 1: make it harder to enter the market and compete.
2: The fines imposed, well if you listened to the radio a week or so ago, the competition commission was touted as being "completely ineffective" and that companies just paid fines and carried on doing what they were doing.

So much for the regulated solution.

As for the recession: Explain to me how having a "central bank" in the first place has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER remotely to do with the free market. A central bank by definition has a MONOPOLY PRIVILAGE granted by government to perform certain functions. So explain how a monopoly in your eyes = free market and lack of regulation.


The central bank lowered interest rates below the market related interest rates. So, monopoly bank, artificially "lowering" interests rates below the market rate in your eyes is the "free-market" at work. How does a central institution one day waking up and "deciding" by itself what the interest rate should be in ANY WAY related to market forces (Lenders and borrowers) transacting.

The Clinton administration promoted lower credit standards so that everyone could buy a house. The banks followed the administrations lead and gave every Tom, Dick and Harry loans. Government tried to interfere.

If you are saying "but the banks had the freedom to choose not lend out all that money to people who couldn't pay it back". Well yes, but when you have a government backed (guarenteed) institution who is willing to buy all the debt as in Freddy Mae and Fannie Mac where is the risk.

I lend out money, someone else takes over the debt and I get paid. Whats the risk? Ya, ya!

I'm sorry you have a good idea of what happened but you haven't bothered to look at the real cause of the problem. The central banks are not "free" market banks. The weild too much market power.

When economies get into trouble, Mr. Rothbard points out, businessmen are "misled by bank credit inflation to invest too much in higher-order capital goods" such as houses and cars. The "boom," then, "is actually a period of wasteful misinvestment…. Errors are made due to bank credit's tampering with the free market." This is followed by a recovery period that sees a "rapid liquidation of the wasteful investments," and, typically, a deflationary credit contraction, which helps restore confidence in the remaining sound banks.

"If government wishes to see a depression ended as quickly as possible, and the economy returned to normal prosperity," professor Rothbard explains, "the first and clearest injunction is: don't interfere with the market's adjustment process," which will include bankruptcies of unsound enterprises, credit contraction, and falling wages and prices.

This is the course the government took during the 1920–21 recession, which was over so quickly that the history books barely remember it. (Except in the farm segment of the economy, where the government made the mistake of interfering to try to hold crop prices at artificially inflated World War I levels — a mistake that has now been ongoing for 90 years.)

But let us say, for the sake of argument, that government wanted to hamper the normal process of economic adjustment, which helps make recessions brief and relatively painless.

If anyone in Washington were to be so wacky as to seek to extend the pain of a recession, what course would they follow? On page 26 of America's Great Depression, Rothbard presents that very catalog of idiocy:

Here are the ways the adjustment process can be hobbled:

Prevent or delay liquidation. Lend money to shaky businesses, call on banks to lend further, etc.

Inflate further. Further inflation blocks the necessary fall in prices, thus delaying adjustment and prolonging depression. Further credit expansion creates more malinvestments, which, in their turn, will have to be liquidated in some later depression. A government 'easy money' policy prevents the market's return to the necessary higher interest rates.

Keep wage rates up. Artificial maintenance of wage rates in a depression ensures permanent mass unemployment. Furthermore, in a deflation, when prices are falling, keeping the same rate of money wages means that real wage rates have been pushed higher. In the face of falling business demand, this greatly aggravates the unemployment problem.

In addition to "minimum wage laws," don't we now have "living wage" ordinances, "project labor agreements," and, for our unionized government employees, "automatic step and seniority raises" in addition to cost-of-living adjustments that boost the pay of government employees as well as welfare recipients — even when the cost of living is falling?

Rothbard continues, cataloguing precisely the wrong things to do if you want a recession to end:

Keep prices up. Keeping prices above their free-market levels will create unsalable surpluses, and prevent a return to prosperity.

Stimulate consumption and discourage saving. We have seen that more saving and less consumption would speed recovery; more consumption and less saving aggravate the shortage of saved-capital even further.

Government can encourage consumption by "food stamp plans" and relief payments.

Note that America's Great Depression was published in 1963. How's Rothbard doing at predicting Obamanomics, so far? About the only thing he seems to have missed are "Cash for Clunkers" and the fledgling "green jobs" boondoggle.

Government "can discourage savings and investment by higher taxes," Rothbard continues,particularly on the wealthy and on corporations and estates. As a matter of fact, any increase of taxes and government spending will discourage saving and investment and stimulate consumption, since government spending is all consumption….

Subsidize unemployment: Any subsidization of unemployment (via unemployment 'insurance,' relief, etc.) will prolong unemployment indefinitely, and delay the shift of workers to the fields where jobs are available."
Incredible. We know what these measures do. They delay economic adjustment and recovery; they extend economic hardship, regardless of whether we call the hard times a depression or a "great recession."

This was all proved, laboriously, in spades, from 1929 to 1938, all brilliantly analyzed and explained by the late Murray N. Rothbard, with whom I had the honor to discuss some of government's tendencies to repeat the same mind-boggling errors over and over again, during his time at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas.

The only question remaining: Since the experiment has already been done, and the long-term effects of these policies demonstrated — to the enormous pain and inconvenience of our long-suffering grandparents — why do the boys in Washington now insist on repeating this experiment in economic disaster, all over again?
 
Capitalism Is Inherently Unstable and Prone to Recessions

As the Austrian/Hayekian theory of the business cycle illustrates, this isn't actually the case. On the Mises Institute's YouTube channel and Media page, you can find lectures by Robert Murphy, Douglas French, and Roger Garrison explaining why this objection doesn't hold water. To make a long story short, growth will be sustainable if prices (interest rates in particular) aren't distorted by government intervention.

http://mises.org/daily/3771


If you really want to understand free-market principles and the business cycle you should read some of Mises's own ideas on the business cycle and particular how the central banks and governs control credit expansion.
 
http://mises.org/daily/3771


If you really want to understand free-market principles and the business cycle you should read some of Mises's own ideas on the business cycle and particular how the central banks and governs control credit expansion.

Do you actually have any economics background, or are you just spouting this guy's stuff?
 
Did a year of economics at varsity...but austrian economics is a hobby of mine. I visit the mises site almost every day to read their articles as well as viewing their lectures on Youtube.

Thats the reason I keep pointing people to academics, people whoes careers a built on economics and understanding of various principles and debating various views. I'm not an expert but these guys are.

They are far more eloquent and succinct than I am at explaining these principles.
 
Don't need to be an academic when it comes to having opinions on economic issues, but since this is of great interest to me, and I do a fair amount of reading on the issue I have a lot to add to these debates.

Far more than someone who regurgitates whats heard in the media. "I've disregarded free-market principles to save the free-market." - George W Bush

Since a number of guys from the "Austrian" view on economics were really some of the few people who were saying "recessions coming", don't buy stocks, get out the housing market etc. and the mainstream view was "rubbish", "nonsense", "you guys are insane" and similar other things such as seen here

http://garynorth.com/public/4251.cfm

The austrian economists, whilst definately not being the most popular people, since they dislike governments and even go so far as to prove how government goes against the idea of liberty and freedom and free markets (Hence the reason why their opinion doesn't carry much "mainstream" weight. If you are against government you don't get a voice), seem to have gotten a whole lot right and very little wrong.

They don't take shortcuts, they didn't have different theories for different commodities(E.G. one theory for money and one for everything else), the recessions and all past recessions are explained by their theories.

They come across as down-to-earth people who view the world with a lot of common sense and they are very clear on the points they wish to bring to the table.
 
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